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Old May 23rd 17, 02:14 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled

On Tue, 23 May 2017 11:40:33 +0100
ColinR wrote:
On 23/05/2017 09:51, d wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 21:14:01 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/05/2017 16:51,
d wrote:
of the many heathrow flight paths and there's enough air traffic already.

God
knows what it'll be like with even more. Assuming NATs can handle it which
isn't a given as it seems from 2019 they'll be doing London Citys remote
control tower - no one at home, just video feeds down a presumably "secure"
link. What could possibly go wrong?


Actually three separate secure links.


And how do you know the current one in use hasn't been compromised and is
feeding duff data or video? Or failing that a contractor cuts through the
cables by mistake. I utterly fail to see the logic behind this. It must be
costing a fortune to do and for what? They won't be saving on salaries since
they'll still need new people at NATs so what is the reason? Heating bill of
the control tower? Given the risks its an absurd decision.


Savings will be made when one set of controllers look after multiple
airports, London City is likely the first of many - see
http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2017/...ntrol-replaced
centralised-surveillance


Ah, so its like the situation that led to this accident over switzerland
in 2002:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C...-air_collision

Fantastic.

--
Spud



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Old May 23rd 17, 02:33 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled

On 23/05/2017 14:14, d wrote:
On Tue, 23 May 2017 11:40:33 +0100
ColinR wrote:
On 23/05/2017 09:51,
d wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 21:14:01 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/05/2017 16:51,
d wrote:
of the many heathrow flight paths and there's enough air traffic already.

God
knows what it'll be like with even more. Assuming NATs can handle it which
isn't a given as it seems from 2019 they'll be doing London Citys remote
control tower - no one at home, just video feeds down a presumably "secure"
link. What could possibly go wrong?


Actually three separate secure links.

And how do you know the current one in use hasn't been compromised and is
feeding duff data or video? Or failing that a contractor cuts through the
cables by mistake. I utterly fail to see the logic behind this. It must be
costing a fortune to do and for what? They won't be saving on salaries since
they'll still need new people at NATs so what is the reason? Heating bill of
the control tower? Given the risks its an absurd decision.


Savings will be made when one set of controllers look after multiple
airports, London City is likely the first of many - see
http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2017/...ntrol-replaced
centralised-surveillance


Ah, so its like the situation that led to this accident over switzerland
in 2002:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C...-air_collision

Fantastic.


True, but that accident was caused by the country air traffic control,
not an airport approach control. Like for like comparison would be with
Swanwick which covers the UK country air space.

However, I tend to agree with your discomfort, looks like a money saving
idea rather than a safety inspired idea, the point I was making.

--
Colin

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Old May 23rd 17, 03:26 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled

On 23/05/2017 14:13, d wrote:
On Tue, 23 May 2017 10:30:27 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 23/05/2017 09:51,
d wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 21:14:01 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/05/2017 16:51,
d wrote:
of the many heathrow flight paths and there's enough air traffic already.

God
knows what it'll be like with even more. Assuming NATs can handle it which
isn't a given as it seems from 2019 they'll be doing London Citys remote
control tower - no one at home, just video feeds down a presumably "secure"
link. What could possibly go wrong?


Actually three separate secure links.

And how do you know the current one in use hasn't been compromised and is
feeding duff data or video? Or failing that a contractor cuts through the
cables by mistake.


If the cable has been cut through then you won't get any picture. I
suspect even someone from the CAA might notice that.


I suspect hackers would be somewhat subtler than just blanking the picture.


I was answering your point about the cable being cut.


What risks? Its a triple redundancy system as used by aircraft.
Whether the controllers re staring out of the windows or at screens
makes no odds. In fact the latter can be better as night vision cameras
can give you a better visual image after dark.


Right, because you couldn't possibly do any of that in the control tower.


Once you are using screens they can be located anywhere, don't have to
be actually at the airport.

And since when did security cameras have the same viewing field as the human
eye thats carried around in a skull and can look in any direction almost
instantly including vertically down?


And the advantage of being able to look at the foot of the tower would be?


You also have the possibility of overlaying relevant information on the
screens such as tagging the image of each aircraft with its flight details.


See above.


See what above? You haven't addressed the point at all.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.



  #56   Report Post  
Old May 23rd 17, 03:27 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled

On 23/05/2017 14:14, d wrote:
On Tue, 23 May 2017 11:40:33 +0100
ColinR wrote:
On 23/05/2017 09:51,
d wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 21:14:01 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/05/2017 16:51,
d wrote:
of the many heathrow flight paths and there's enough air traffic already.

God
knows what it'll be like with even more. Assuming NATs can handle it which
isn't a given as it seems from 2019 they'll be doing London Citys remote
control tower - no one at home, just video feeds down a presumably "secure"
link. What could possibly go wrong?


Actually three separate secure links.

And how do you know the current one in use hasn't been compromised and is
feeding duff data or video? Or failing that a contractor cuts through the
cables by mistake. I utterly fail to see the logic behind this. It must be
costing a fortune to do and for what? They won't be saving on salaries since
they'll still need new people at NATs so what is the reason? Heating bill of
the control tower? Given the risks its an absurd decision.


Savings will be made when one set of controllers look after multiple
airports, London City is likely the first of many - see
http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2017/...ntrol-replaced
centralised-surveillance


Ah, so its like the situation that led to this accident over switzerland
in 2002:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C...-air_collision

Fantastic.


All British airspace is controlled for either Swanwick or Prestwick,
your point is?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

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Old May 23rd 17, 03:59 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Posts: 2,990
Default Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled

wrote:
On Tue, 23 May 2017 10:30:27 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 23/05/2017 09:51, d wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 21:14:01 +0100
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/05/2017 16:51,
d wrote:
of the many heathrow flight paths and there's enough air traffic already.

God
knows what it'll be like with even more. Assuming NATs can handle it which
isn't a given as it seems from 2019 they'll be doing London Citys remote
control tower - no one at home, just video feeds down a presumably "secure"
link. What could possibly go wrong?


Actually three separate secure links.

And how do you know the current one in use hasn't been compromised and is
feeding duff data or video? Or failing that a contractor cuts through the
cables by mistake.


If the cable has been cut through then you won't get any picture. I
suspect even someone from the CAA might notice that.


I suspect hackers would be somewhat subtler than just blanking the picture.

What risks? Its a triple redundancy system as used by aircraft.
Whether the controllers re staring out of the windows or at screens
makes no odds. In fact the latter can be better as night vision cameras
can give you a better visual image after dark.


Right, because you couldn't possibly do any of that in the control tower.
And since when did security cameras have the same viewing field as the human
eye thats carried around in a skull and can look in any direction almost
instantly including vertically down?


You're assuming the tower has a glass floor?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pqIGEo88RXA/maxresdefault.jpg


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Old May 23rd 17, 04:36 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Posts: 1,044
Default Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled

On Tue, 23 May 2017 14:35:02 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
But passengers in transit through the hub still require airlines to
prepare, clean, fuel and crew aircraft, transfer baggage, and make and
deliver on-board meals.

Transit passengers are therefore making much the same demands (and
providing much the same revenue) for the local economy as non-transit
passengers.


Given that the staff can come from anywhere I doubt the "local" economy
sees many benefits at all. OTOH The extra traffic might reduce it quite
significantly if people stop bothering visiting the shops or companies.

in the first place. Without the transit passengers the airlines might
decide not to run them (or as many) at all.


One could only hope.

--
Spud


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Old May 23rd 17, 04:40 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled

On Tue, 23 May 2017 14:59:39 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Right, because you couldn't possibly do any of that in the control tower.
And since when did security cameras have the same viewing field as the human
eye thats carried around in a skull and can look in any direction almost
instantly including vertically down?


You're assuming the tower has a glass floor?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pqIGEo88RXA/maxresdefault.jpg


I guess ir never occured to you to wonder why the windows are angled outwards
instead of being vertical.

--
Spud




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