In message , at 11:53:44 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:

If you check, there is a whole network of different standard voltages
starting with the 400kV supergrid, right down to the 415 Volt 3 phase
plus neutral feeder that runs under or over your street, with branches
off to give a single phase 230 Volt supply to your house or flat.

In general terms, the current at each stage is similar.

Broadly true, apart from the supergrid being 1000A, as far as I can
tell.

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local
substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50
amps?
--
Roland Perry

On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the local
substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use. The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

The future is hydrogen.

--
jhk

On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

The future is hydrogen.


As it has been for 50 years…

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

The future is hydrogen.


As it has been for 50 years…

50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John
O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/john-o%E2%80%99groats-land%E2%80%99s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car

On 14/07/2018 13:31, Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

The future is hydrogen.


As it has been for 50 years…

50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John
O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/john-o%E2%80%99groats-land%E2%80%99s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car


You could have done, though I don't know if anyone ever did. Also
possible in a gas-turbine car and one or two other exotic beasts around
that time.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:31:15 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:22:45 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 13/07/2018 19:12, Jarle Hammen Knudsen wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

The future is hydrogen.


As it has been for 50 years…

50 years ago, you couldn't drive a hydrogen-powered car from John
O'Groats to Land's End, as Autocar did last month:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...s-land%E2%80%9
9s-end-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car

The physics hasn't changed in 50 years. I read somewhere (can't find it) that
using hydrogen for energy is so inefficient with our current grid of mixed
fossil fuel power stations that you'd create a lot less total CO2 just using a
diesel vehicle though far better to use the electricity you waste on creating
H2 just to convert it back to electricity again to charge a battery vehicle.

Also hydrogen is hard to transport and store in large amounts and requires a
lot of electricity to compress it over and above that required to create it
from water or (even worse) steamed out of natural gas in the first place.

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:41:57 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:21:33 on Fri, 13
Jul 2018, John Williamson remarked:
On 13/07/2018 16:09, Roland Perry wrote:

What's important for the EV-charging scenario is that is if several
dozen houses are supplied by an 200A street main at 230v from the
local substation, how can more than a handful charge an EV overnight
at 50 amps?

The grid will eventually have to be upgraded, though for domestic use,
an off peak slow charge at 3 kilowatts is usually enough for a day's
use.

The problem with off-peak is that everyone is expecting to use it, so it
becomes just as much in demand as "peak".

3 kilowatts is double the normal average power consumption of houses.

The street main is usually 200A per phase, though.

Which if we believe grid figures that an average household is perhaps
1.5kW means it can feed (200/(1500/230))x3 = 90 houses.

Still wondering where even the level 2 Tesla chargers (80 amps at 230v)
will get their supply from.

It seems to me the whole charging problem of mass ownership of electric cars
has been kicked into the long grass. As usual politicians will only react when
they have to when the load on the grid either local or national becomes critical
whereupon headless chicken mode will be engaged.

On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 08:59:01 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

It seems to me the whole charging problem of mass ownership of electric cars
has been kicked into the long grass. As usual politicians will only react when
they have to when the load on the grid either local or national becomes critical
whereupon headless chicken mode will be engaged.

We've already been here before and there is NO problem.

The additonal supply requirements are negligible if you take your head out of
the sand, forget this idea of a two minute charge because thats how long it
takes for your hydrocarbon car to refuel to do 600 miles to the back end of
nowhere without stopping for urinating or whatever and realise the average car
is, with absolute certainty, sat doing absolutely nothing but depreciating for
many thousands of hours a year. Around half of that almost certainly at home.

Even if you commute for an hour a day to some rat infested city It's still sat
at home for maybe 100 hours a week.

Maybe you'll throw in the argument about cables draped across pavements but a
couple of hours of work on the legislation would see that dangerous and
unsociable practive outlawed overnight.

The 'poor' without places to park offroad will have to do without personal
transport charged at home somewhere around 2050-2060 They better get planning
now because there are only 22 years to change habits if they are to buy a new
hydrocarbon fuelled car. Maybe they could start saving now to buy a bigger
property or in the intervening period public transport could fill the gap and
get the vast majority of cars off the road regardless of their fuelling.

See this for a worked example on electricity usage for the 'average UK motorist'

Message-ID:
--