Crossrail 3

Hi all,

As an alternative to the Chelsea-Hackney Line, Mayor Ken Livingstone
talked about a Crossrail 3 between Euston and Waterloo and said this
may go ahead if it has a stronger case than Crossrail 2. Here is a
proposal for a Crossrail 3. Feel free to comment on it.

The Line

The Central tunnel would run from Waterloo, stopping at Temple (at the
western end of the station) and Tottenham Court Road (with an
additional exit near Covent Garden / Leicester Square) before dividing
into two branches: one branch would go to Euston, the other branch to
King's Cross.

From Euston the line would surface near a new Camden Lock station
(either on Parkway (the street) or near Chalk Farm Safeway) and would
continue along the 'DC' lines to Watford Junction. The Bakerloo Line
would be cut back to Queen's Park. As at most 12 trains per hour
(tph) would run on this line, the Bakerloo Line would still be able to
use Stonebridge Park Depot.

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station. The line would then surface near Clapton,
or if this is not possible an underground station at Clapton. Some
trains would then continue to Chingford, others to Stansted Airport.

From Waterloo the line would surface between Vauxhall and Waterloo.
Crossrail 3 would then takeover the Wimbledon slow lines and serve
Vauxhall, Battersea (new platforms), Clapham Junction and on to
Hampton Court (4 tph), Chessington South (4tph), Shepperton (4tph) and
Espom (4tph). The rest of the service would have to terminate in an as
yet undecided location (possibly Clapham Junction - build some
reversing sidings there?). Connections between the fast lines and
slow lines would be retained in the event of an emergency (e.g. if SWT
and Crossrail 3 had to squeeze onto the slow lines).

In the North, the 4tph to Chessington South would go up to Watford
Junction, as would the unspecified 8tph (that terminates somewhere
along the line - Clapham Junction?). The remaining 12tph goes to
Stansted / Chingford (2tph to Stansted, 10tph to Chingford).

Advantages:
 Relief for the Victoria Line, Northern Line, Waterloo & City
Line, the South West Trains network, the Bakerloo Line and the
District Line from Wimbledon.
 South West services that Crossrail 3 takes over are not
diverted away from Waterloo so commuter journeys not affected. North
East services are diverted away from Liverpool Street, but as a result
the Enfield Town / Southbury services will operate at an increased
frequency. Passengers will be able to change at Hackney for Liverpool
Street.
 South West branches get a better service than now, service
cannot be improved due to lack of platforms at Waterloo.
 Relief to Euston, Liverpool Street and Waterloo - delays
reduced on other services into the termini.
 Regeneration of Battersea, Vauxhall, Hackney, Clapton,
Wembley, Harlesden, Stonebridge Park, Willesden Junction, Chingford,
Walthamstow, Clapham Junction and Carpenders Park.
 Increased rail capacity to Camden on Sundays, with new
journey opportunities.
 Less line in tunnel (if the Chelsea-Hackney line is going
underground at Clapham Junction).
 No stations will have to close.
 A direct rail link between Waterloo and King's Cross.
 Reduction in amount of interchange at Victoria.
 Avoids the problem of building a mainline station at
Piccadilly Circus


Note:
 If platform lengthening is too costly 8 car trains could be
run instead of 12 cars. Some empty trains will be starting at, say,
Clapham Junction, so these will cater for commuters further along the
line.

"Nitro" wrote in message
om...
Crossrail 3

Hi all,

As an alternative to the Chelsea-Hackney Line, Mayor Ken Livingstone
talked about a Crossrail 3 between Euston and Waterloo and said this
may go ahead if it has a stronger case than Crossrail 2. Here is a
proposal for a Crossrail 3. Feel free to comment on it.

Having waited 40 years for crossrail 1 not to happen, whatever
the merits of this line it has no chance of funding

tim


The Line

The Central tunnel would run from Waterloo, stopping at Temple (at the
western end of the station) and Tottenham Court Road (with an
additional exit near Covent Garden / Leicester Square) before dividing
into two branches: one branch would go to Euston, the other branch to
King's Cross.

From Euston the line would surface near a new Camden Lock station
(either on Parkway (the street) or near Chalk Farm Safeway) and would
continue along the 'DC' lines to Watford Junction. The Bakerloo Line
would be cut back to Queen's Park. As at most 12 trains per hour
(tph) would run on this line, the Bakerloo Line would still be able to
use Stonebridge Park Depot.

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station. The line would then surface near Clapton,
or if this is not possible an underground station at Clapton. Some
trains would then continue to Chingford, others to Stansted Airport.

From Waterloo the line would surface between Vauxhall and Waterloo.
Crossrail 3 would then takeover the Wimbledon slow lines and serve
Vauxhall, Battersea (new platforms), Clapham Junction and on to
Hampton Court (4 tph), Chessington South (4tph), Shepperton (4tph) and
Espom (4tph). The rest of the service would have to terminate in an as
yet undecided location (possibly Clapham Junction - build some
reversing sidings there?). Connections between the fast lines and
slow lines would be retained in the event of an emergency (e.g. if SWT
and Crossrail 3 had to squeeze onto the slow lines).

In the North, the 4tph to Chessington South would go up to Watford
Junction, as would the unspecified 8tph (that terminates somewhere
along the line - Clapham Junction?). The remaining 12tph goes to
Stansted / Chingford (2tph to Stansted, 10tph to Chingford).

Advantages:
 Relief for the Victoria Line, Northern Line, Waterloo & City
Line, the South West Trains network, the Bakerloo Line and the
District Line from Wimbledon.
 South West services that Crossrail 3 takes over are not
diverted away from Waterloo so commuter journeys not affected. North
East services are diverted away from Liverpool Street, but as a result
the Enfield Town / Southbury services will operate at an increased
frequency. Passengers will be able to change at Hackney for Liverpool
Street.
 South West branches get a better service than now, service
cannot be improved due to lack of platforms at Waterloo.
 Relief to Euston, Liverpool Street and Waterloo - delays
reduced on other services into the termini.
 Regeneration of Battersea, Vauxhall, Hackney, Clapton,
Wembley, Harlesden, Stonebridge Park, Willesden Junction, Chingford,
Walthamstow, Clapham Junction and Carpenders Park.
 Increased rail capacity to Camden on Sundays, with new
journey opportunities.
 Less line in tunnel (if the Chelsea-Hackney line is going
underground at Clapham Junction).
 No stations will have to close.
 A direct rail link between Waterloo and King's Cross.
 Reduction in amount of interchange at Victoria.
 Avoids the problem of building a mainline station at
Piccadilly Circus


Note:
 If platform lengthening is too costly 8 car trains could be
run instead of 12 cars. Some empty trains will be starting at, say,
Clapham Junction, so these will cater for commuters further along the
line.

Nitro wrote:

Crossrail 3

Hi all,

As an alternative to the Chelsea-Hackney Line, Mayor Ken Livingstone
talked about a Crossrail 3 between Euston and Waterloo and said this
may go ahead if it has a stronger case than Crossrail 2.

When did he say that?

Here is a proposal for a Crossrail 3. Feel free to comment on it.

The Line

The Central tunnel would run from Waterloo, stopping at Temple (at the
western end of the station) and Tottenham Court Road (with an additional
exit near Covent Garden / Leicester Square) before dividing into two
branches: one branch would go to Euston, the other branch to King's Cross.

That's rather zigzaggy! Why not go via Holborn?

From Euston the line would surface near a new Camden Lock station
(either on Parkway (the street) or near Chalk Farm Safeway) and would
continue along the 'DC' lines to Watford Junction. The Bakerloo Line
would be cut back to Queen's Park. As at most 12 trains per hour
(tph) would run on this line, the Bakerloo Line would still be able to
use Stonebridge Park Depot.

I think a lot of commuters would be upset about losing their direct
Paddington service.

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station.

Do you mean Hackney Downs?

The line would then surface near Clapton,
or if this is not possible an underground station at Clapton. Some
trains would then continue to Chingford,

Although you're not the first to suggest a Crossrail line take over the
Chingford branch, it doesn't seem such a good idea to me. The loss of a
direct service to the City would be very unpopular with many people who
moved to the area because of its good links to the City.

others to Stansted Airport.

With what stopping pattern?

From Waterloo the line would surface between Vauxhall and Waterloo.

Did you have a surfacing location in mind?

Crossrail 3 would then takeover the Wimbledon slow lines and serve
Vauxhall, Battersea (new platforms),

What's wrong with the old ones? Or are you saying that there should be
new platforms on the Victoria to Brixton line?

Clapham Junction and on to Hampton Court (4 tph), Chessington South
(4tph), Shepperton (4tph) and Espom (4tph).

Why stop at 4tph? And don't they already get that?

The rest of the service would have to terminate in an as
yet undecided location (possibly Clapham Junction - build some
reversing sidings there?).

Why?

Connections between the fast lines and
slow lines would be retained in the event of an emergency (e.g. if SWT
and Crossrail 3 had to squeeze onto the slow lines).

In the North, the 4tph to Chessington South would go up to Watford
Junction, as would the unspecified 8tph (that terminates somewhere
along the line - Clapham Junction?). The remaining 12tph goes to
Stansted / Chingford (2tph to Stansted, 10tph to Chingford).

That would leave Chingford with an extremely irregular service! And why
only 2tph to Stansted? At that frequency you'd get all the disbenefits
of slower boardings (due to passengers' luggage) without the ridership
benefits that a frequent service to the airport would bring.

Advantages:
 Relief for the Victoria Line,

Some, but not as much as Crossrail 2.

Northern Line,

True. However, this branch of the Northern Line isn't as busy as the
City branch, and the planned Cross River Tram will make it even less
crowded.

Waterloo & City Line,

Hardly! A few W&C passengers might go via Temple instead, but the vast
majority would find the existing route more convenient. If you want to
relieve the W&C, a Waterloo to Liverpool Street link would be far more
effective (even though it would probably require the demolition of a few
buildings).

the South West Trains network, the Bakerloo Line and the
District Line from Wimbledon.

Why would it have any effect whatsoever on the District Line from
Wimbledon?



I'm curious - what was that meant to be?

South West services that Crossrail 3 takes over are not
diverted away from Waterloo so commuter journeys not affected. North
East services are diverted away from Liverpool Street, but as a result
the Enfield Town / Southbury services will operate at an increased
frequency. Passengers will be able to change at Hackney for Liverpool
Street.

Quite an awkward interchange!

 South West branches get a better service than now, service
cannot be improved due to lack of platforms at Waterloo.

With so many trains to an undecided destination, you seem rather
reluctant to give them a better service!

 Relief to Euston, Liverpool Street and Waterloo - delays
reduced on other services into the termini.

As is the case for almost any Crossrail service. However, Crossrail 1
(if done correctly) should remove (or at least greatly postpone) the
need for further relief to Euston and Liverpool Street.

In the long term a Crossrail line will probably be needed to handle the
capacity at Waterloo, but Eurostar's planned abandonment of its current
terminal removes a lot of the urgency.

 Regeneration of Battersea, Vauxhall, Hackney, Clapton,
Wembley, Harlesden, Stonebridge Park, Willesden Junction, Chingford,
Walthamstow, Clapham Junction and Carpenders Park.

There might be regeneration in some of those places, but by no means all
of them. Walthamstow in particular would suffer from the loss of its
direct link to the City.

 Increased rail capacity to Camden on Sundays, with new
journey opportunities.

But London Underground will have provided sufficient capacity long
before then anyway.

 Less line in tunnel (if the Chelsea-Hackney line is going
underground at Clapham Junction).

But going underground at Clapham Junction enables line 2 to bring rail
services to parts of Battersea and Chelsea that have not previously had
them. There is nothing comparable in your proposal.

Also, Line 2 could surface at Dalston Junction.

 No stations will have to close.
 A direct rail link between Waterloo and King's Cross.

There's a much cheaper (light rail) one on the drawing board!

 Reduction in amount of interchange at Victoria.
 Avoids the problem of building a mainline station at
Piccadilly Circus

Just what exactly is the problem there?

Note:
 If platform lengthening is too costly 8 car trains could be
run instead of 12 cars. Some empty trains will be starting at, say,
Clapham Junction, so these will cater for commuters further along the
line.

You're proposing a multibillion pound railway and you're worried that
lengthening suburban platforms would be too expensive???

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Aidan Stanger wrote:

Nitro wrote:

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station.

Do you mean Hackney Downs?

Comes to much the same thing - they're only a paving-slab's-toss apart.

The line would then surface near Clapton, or if this is not possible
an underground station at Clapton. Some trains would then continue to
Chingford,

Although you're not the first to suggest a Crossrail line take over the
Chingford branch, it doesn't seem such a good idea to me. The loss of a
direct service to the City would be very unpopular with many people who
moved to the area because of its good links to the City.

Okay, Crossrail Three And A Half:

Take over the Chingford branch, or even the entire suburban West Anglia;
get as far as the current Bethnal Green station (which should be closed
with extreme prejudice, and replaced with one over the road from, and
joined by a tunnel to, the Central Line station of the same name - hey
look, now you can get from northeast London to the Central Line without
interchanging at Liverpool Street!), then dive and go underground to
Liverpool Street (where cross-platform interchange with the Central line
would be lovely, but almost certainly entirely impossible), possibly with
a new stop somewhere around Shoreditch, then carry on to Moorgate
(probably, nay hopefully, demolishing some - frankly very ugly - office
buildings on the way) and take over the Widened Lines (which by now have
been given up by Thameslink due to the platform lengthening at
Farringdon); just before Farringdon, veer off into a new bit of tunnel to
King's Cross (yes, that makes a grand total of three parallel tracks
between Farringdon and King's Cross), and thence follow whatever route
Nitro proposed, or just go crazy and tunnel to Cork or something.

Note that i know **** all about the technical aspects of railways, and
have thought of this off the top of my head, so sorry if it's a bit silly.

tom


--
.... to build a space elevator, that's got to be hundreds of thousands of pounds ... -- Mike Froggatt

"Aidan Stanger" wrote in message


Nitro wrote:

As an alternative to the Chelsea-Hackney Line, Mayor Ken Livingstone
talked about a Crossrail 3 between Euston and Waterloo and said this
may go ahead if it has a stronger case than Crossrail 2.

When did he say that?

March 2002.

The Central tunnel would run from Waterloo, stopping at Temple (at the
western end of the station) and Tottenham Court Road (with an additional
exit near Covent Garden / Leicester Square)

That's rather zigzaggy! Why not go via Holborn?

1) To serve the West End, 2) to interchange with Crossrail line one.

From Euston the line would surface near a new Camden Lock station
(either on Parkway (the street) or near Chalk Farm Safeway) and would
continue along the 'DC' lines to Watford Junction. The Bakerloo Line
would be cut back to Queen's Park. As at most 12 trains per hour
(tph) would run on this line, the Bakerloo Line would still be able to
use Stonebridge Park Depot.

I think a lot of commuters would be upset about losing their direct
Paddington service.

OK, see what you mean.

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station.

Do you mean Hackney Downs?

No an underground stop at / near the two, as in Crossrail 2 proposals

The line would then surface near Clapton,
or if this is not possible an underground station at Clapton. Some
trains would then continue to Chingford,

Although you're not the first to suggest a Crossrail line take over the
Chingford branch, it doesn't seem such a good idea to me. The loss of a
direct service to the City would be very unpopular with many people who
moved to the area because of its good links to the City.

Is one change really that bad? OK, where do you think my Crossrail, or
even Crossrail 2, should go from Dalstion Junction?

others to Stansted Airport.

With what stopping pattern?

Tottenham Hale, Bishops Stortford, Stansted Airport

From Waterloo the line would surface between Vauxhall and Waterloo.

Did you have a surfacing location in mind?

No.

Crossrail 3 would then takeover the Wimbledon slow lines and serve
Vauxhall, Battersea (new platforms),

What's wrong with the old ones? Or are you saying that there should be
new platforms on the Victoria to Brixton line?

Are there platforms on the Wimbledon slow lines?

Clapham Junction and on to Hampton Court (4 tph), Chessington South
(4tph), Shepperton (4tph) and Espom (4tph).

Why stop at 4tph? And don't they already get that?

I think they get 2tph at present.

The rest of the service would have to terminate in an as
yet undecided location (possibly Clapham Junction - build some
reversing sidings there?).

Why?

So people can get on trains at somewhere like Vauxhall.

In the North, the 4tph to Chessington South would go up to Watford
Junction, as would the unspecified 8tph (that terminates somewhere
along the line - Clapham Junction?). The remaining 12tph goes to
Stansted / Chingford (2tph to Stansted, 10tph to Chingford).

That would leave Chingford with an extremely irregular service! And why
only 2tph to Stansted? At that frequency you'd get all the disbenefits
of slower boardings (due to passengers' luggage) without the ridership
benefits that a frequent service to the airport would bring.

Unless you four track the Lee Valley line, you have to squeeze the
Stratford - Stansted / Hertford East services (to be added soon),
Cambridge / Hertford East- Liverpool Street and Stansted - Liverpool
Street.


Advantages:
· Relief for the Victoria Line,

Some, but not as much as Crossrail 2.

Maybe, but it reduces interchange at the busiest station on the line,
Victoria.

Northern Line,

True. However, this branch of the Northern Line isn't as busy as the
City branch, and the planned Cross River Tram will make it even less
crowded.

Fair enough.

Waterloo & City Line,

Hardly! A few W&C passengers might go via Temple instead, but the vast
majority would find the existing route more convenient. If you want to
relieve the W&C, a Waterloo to Liverpool Street link would be far more
effective (even though it would probably require the demolition of a few
buildings).

They also have the option of changing at Tottenham Court Road for
Crossrail 1.

the South West Trains network, the Bakerloo Line and the
District Line from Wimbledon.

Why would it have any effect whatsoever on the District Line from
Wimbledon?

As the line would be on the tube map, it may entice people onto the line
(!).
OK maybe you're right.

·

I'm curious - what was that meant to be?

Bullet Point


North East services are diverted away from Liverpool Street, but as
a result the Enfield Town / Southbury services will operate at an
increased frequency. Passengers will be able to change at Hackney
for Liverpool Street.

Quite an awkward interchange!

Could be made less akward, if the Crossrail 3 Hackney stop is well
built.

· South West branches get a better service than now, service
cannot be improved due to lack of platforms at Waterloo.

With so many trains to an undecided destination, you seem rather
reluctant to give them a better service!

See how they cope with 4tph, and if trains are overcrowded then increase
the number of trains.

· Relief to Euston, Liverpool Street and Waterloo

As is the case for almost any Crossrail service. However, Crossrail 1
(if done correctly) should remove (or at least greatly postpone) the
need for further relief to Euston and Liverpool Street.

Why Euston?

In the long term a Crossrail line will probably be needed to handle the
capacity at Waterloo, but Eurostar's planned abandonment of its current
terminal removes a lot of the urgency.

I read somewhere that when Waterloo international is abandoned they
would extend platforms to take 12 cars and some platforms at Waterloo
would disappear.

· Regeneration of Battersea, Vauxhall, Hackney, Clapton,
Wembley, Harlesden, Stonebridge Park, Willesden Junction, Chingford,
Walthamstow, Clapham Junction and Carpenders Park.

There might be regeneration in some of those places, but by no means all
of them. Walthamstow in particular would suffer from the loss of its
direct link to the City.

Walthamstow may lose its link to the city, but there are places that
have regenerated that do not have a direct link to the city. What about
Wandsworth?

· Increased rail capacity to Camden on Sundays

But London Underground will have provided sufficient capacity long
before then anyway.

· Less line in tunnel (if the Chelsea-Hackney line is going
underground at Clapham Junction).

But going underground at Clapham Junction enables line 2 to bring rail
services to parts of Battersea and Chelsea that have not previously had
them. There is nothing comparable in your proposal.

Battersea or Chelsea. Looking at the London Plan it seems Ken would
rather the line go through Battersea. Even if Crossrail 2 goes ahead,
the part of Battersea it serves will only be a few minutes walk from
Battersea Park station.

Also, Line 2 could surface at Dalston Junction.

And go where? Do you mean Dalston Kingsland?

· A direct rail link between Waterloo and King's Cross.

There's a much cheaper (light rail) one on the drawing board!

Yes, but this may be cheaper / better than Crossrail 2 and CRT put
together.

· Avoids the problem of building a mainline station at
Piccadilly Circus

Just what exactly is the problem there?

Not enough space underground for a mainline station

· If platform lengthening is too costly 8 car trains could be
run instead of 12 cars.

You're proposing a multibillion pound railway and you're worried that
lengthening suburban platforms would be too expensive???

Some platforms (e.g. South Hampstead) might be a problem.

Thanks for your comments.


Jeff.

As an alternative to the Chelsea-Hackney Line, Mayor Ken Livingstone
talked about a Crossrail 3 between Euston and Waterloo and said this
may go ahead if it has a stronger case than Crossrail 2.

When did he say that?

Sounds suspiciously like a hoax to me, but it is nonetheless a nice
idea.

The Central tunnel would run from Waterloo, stopping at Temple (at the
western end of the station) and Tottenham Court Road (with an additional
exit near Covent Garden / Leicester Square) before dividing into two
branches: one branch would go to Euston, the other branch to King's Cross.

That's rather zigzaggy! Why not go via Holborn?

Because the hoaxster couldn't read a tube map?

From Euston the line would surface near a new Camden Lock station
(either on Parkway (the street) or near Chalk Farm Safeway) and would
continue along the 'DC' lines to Watford Junction. The Bakerloo Line
would be cut back to Queen's Park. As at most 12 trains per hour
(tph) would run on this line, the Bakerloo Line would still be able to
use Stonebridge Park Depot.

I think a lot of commuters would be upset about losing their direct
Paddington service.

I doubt it. The Euston trains are the preferred choice on the shared
section. Changing for the next train from the same platform isn't
exactly a huge hardship anyway, especially with a hike in frequency
like that.

With what stopping pattern?

From Waterloo the line would surface between Vauxhall and Waterloo.

Did you have a surfacing location in mind?

Sounds distinctly fishy to me: a portal onto a viaduct, whilst the
remaining 6 tracks on that viaduct are left in situ.

Crossrail 3 would then takeover the Wimbledon slow lines and serve
Vauxhall, Battersea (new platforms),

What's wrong with the old ones? Or are you saying that there should be
new platforms on the Victoria to Brixton line?

The problem with Queenstown Road Battersea is that it's only on the
Windsor Lines. The proposal is basically a SW (Main) Slow Lines
takeover.

Clapham Junction and on to Hampton Court (4 tph), Chessington South
(4tph), Shepperton (4tph) and Espom (4tph).

Aside from the great spelling in that section (at least it isn't the
variant which thinks the Derby is sponsored by a printer company),
there doesn't seem to be much information as to what would happen to
the other services on the Slow Lines (viz. the Kingston Loop,
Guildford via Cobham and possibly the Dorking Semi-Fasts if by Epsom
he means the trains which used to be 19s, but now have been extended
as 16s).

Why stop at 4tph? And don't they already get that?

Epsom gets 4tph if you include the Dorking Semi-Fasts. Chessington,
Shepperton and Hampton all get 2tph off-peak.

Peak frequencies are (based on arrivals at Waterloo between 0800 and
0859):
16 Guildford via Epsom - 2tph
17 Dorking via Epsom - 3tph
18 Chessington South - 2tph
19 Epsom - 1tph
24 Shepperton - 2tph (capacity constraints mean that the other 2tph
run as 47 Shepperton via Richmond)
30 Hampton Court - 2tph
32 Kingston Loop - 4tph
42 Guildford via Cobham - 2tph (a further 2tph runs Fast)

The real problem is this is 18tph in the peaks on the Slow Lines (even
TL2k is only designed for 24, so there's not much leeway left), with
the added pressure of people piling off the 2tph Sutton Loop onto
already packed trains at Wimbledon. The only way I see of solving this
problem is by separating the route, at least as far as Wimbledon, so
that St Helier, Chessington and Epsom trains descend into a new tunnel
whilst the old line remains in place for Cobham, Shepperton, Kingston
etc.

The rest of the service would have to terminate in an as
yet undecided location (possibly Clapham Junction - build some
reversing sidings there?).

Why?

Quite - the pressure for more trains seems much more acute on the SW
Main Line than on the rather lackadaisical LNW DC Lines.

In the North, the 4tph to Chessington South would go up to Watford
Junction, as would the unspecified 8tph (that terminates somewhere
along the line - Clapham Junction?). The remaining 12tph goes to
Stansted / Chingford (2tph to Stansted, 10tph to Chingford).

Oh that's just brilliant - give the least used branch the best onward
connection. Get real - the Epsom locals should go to Watford.

That would leave Chingford with an extremely irregular service! And why
only 2tph to Stansted? At that frequency you'd get all the disbenefits
of slower boardings (due to passengers' luggage) without the ridership
benefits that a frequent service to the airport would bring.

Is this silly enough yet? Although one seat rides from Epsom to
Stansted would be nice for impromptu holidays... perhaps whilst we're
on stupidity, the Victoria Line could trackshare to Chingford to give
them 20tph or so more than they need...

Northern Line,

True. However, this branch of the Northern Line isn't as busy as the
City branch, and the planned Cross River Tram will make it even less
crowded.

I really don't see anyone getting off the train at Waterloo to pile
onto a bus-on-rails to KXSP. I'm sorry, but the cross-platform
interchange at Oxford Circus is the best thing until there's some sort
of "Crossrail 3". I wouldn't use surface transit across Central London
unless somehow every single line in and out of Waterloo Underground
was closed - even then I'd try backtracking to Vauxhall.

Waterloo & City Line,

Hardly! A few W&C passengers might go via Temple instead, but the vast
majority would find the existing route more convenient. If you want to
relieve the W&C, a Waterloo to Liverpool Street link would be far more
effective (even though it would probably require the demolition of a few
buildings).

Hmmmm... that would be nice - combinations like waiting for ages for
the Circle Line only to end up on South Central are far from being one
of my favourite things.

the South West Trains network, the Bakerloo Line and the
District Line from Wimbledon.

Why would it have any effect whatsoever on the District Line from
Wimbledon?

God knows. I only ever use that branch to get to Pad, which I presume
is what most other people coming from the South Western do.



I'm curious - what was that meant to be?

My guess: a bullet point.

My opinion: bullet points should be taken out and shot.

 South West branches get a better service than now, service
cannot be improved due to lack of platforms at Waterloo.

With so many trains to an undecided destination, you seem rather
reluctant to give them a better service!

I'm sorry, but there's plenty of capacity off-peak anyway. In the
peaks the bottleneck starts at Raynes Park.

In the long term a Crossrail line will probably be needed to handle the
capacity at Waterloo, but Eurostar's planned abandonment of its current
terminal removes a lot of the urgency.

And indeed frees up the supposedly scarce platform space. The train
now standing at Platform 24 calls at all stations to Windsor.

 Less line in tunnel (if the Chelsea-Hackney line is going
underground at Clapham Junction).

But going underground at Clapham Junction enables line 2 to bring rail
services to parts of Battersea and Chelsea that have not previously had
them. There is nothing comparable in your proposal.

Not to mention it being a far easier place to locate a portal. I'd
still go for Wimbledon though.

 A direct rail link between Waterloo and King's Cross.

There's a much cheaper (light rail) one on the drawing board!

There's a much simpler one already in existence - it's called the
Victoria Line. The only thing this might tempt me to do is stop using
my silly Epsom - Leicester without stairs route (Epsom - Sutton -
Farringdon (change to Fast train) - either Luton station -
Leicester).

It would also tempt me away from Epsom to Birmingham changing at
Clapham and Watford.

 Avoids the problem of building a mainline station at
Piccadilly Circus

Just what exactly is the problem there?

Not wanting to build an underground foot passageway of approximately
100yds to link two ticket halls.

Note:
 If platform lengthening is too costly 8 car trains could be
run instead of 12 cars. Some empty trains will be starting at, say,
Clapham Junction, so these will cater for commuters further along the
line.

You're proposing a multibillion pound railway and you're worried that
lengthening suburban platforms would be too expensive???

Actually at some stations it would be a real headache. Ewell West only
manages 8 cars by some extremely narrow platform extensions under the
Chessington Road bridge.

(Aidan Stanger) wrote in message .. .
Nitro wrote:

From Euston the line would surface near a new Camden Lock station
(either on Parkway (the street) or near Chalk Farm Safeway) and would
continue along the 'DC' lines to Watford Junction. The Bakerloo Line
would be cut back to Queen's Park. As at most 12 trains per hour
(tph) would run on this line, the Bakerloo Line would still be able to
use Stonebridge Park Depot.

I think a lot of commuters would be upset about losing their direct
Paddington service.

Commuters don't need a direct service to Padddington, they can change
at Tottenham Court Road for Crossrail 1. There are less stops between
Queen's Park and Tottenham Court Road if you go via Euston (via my
scheme) than going via Paddington.

(Nitro) wrote in message . com...
continue along the 'DC' lines to Watford Junction. The Bakerloo Line
would be cut back to Queen's Park. As at most 12 trains per hour
(tph) would run on this line, the Bakerloo Line would still be able to
use Stonebridge Park Depot.

In which case why not just continue to the run the bakerloo to stonebridge
park anyway? This will save lots of people having to change trains at queens
park.

B2003

You're proposing a multibillion pound railway and you're worried that
lengthening suburban platforms would be too expensive???

I agree with James. The plan is hopelessly unrealistic and it's probably a hoax.

Nitro -

The version of Crossrail I favour is as follows:

Line 1:
Tunnels from GlobeTown to Royal Oak and Old Oak Common to Willesden
Junction. At the eastern end, Crossrail would then take over most of the
services to Essex. At the western end it would run an all stations to
Heathrow service, and take over the slow lines on the WCML to
Milton Keynes (and possibly Northampton, but as Northampton's so much
further away it might be better to terminate Crossrail services at
Wolverton and give Northampton to Virgin).

Canary Wharf would not be part of the scheme. It would get its own line
eventually, but meanwhile it would be served by boats.

A Richmond and Kingston branch could be added later. Alternatively that
could also become part of Line 3.

London Underground would take over the Euston to Watford Junction
service using Tube stock (so the platform height could be optimized).
Initially this would run into the main Euston station, but eventually it
could form the basis of a new Tube line to South London, taking over the
Aldwych branch.


Line 2:

Tunnel from Clapham Junction (somewhere between Latchmere Road and
Cranleigh Avenue) to Dalston Junction (via Battersea West, Chelsea,
Victoria, Piccadilly Circus, TCR, Kings Cross St.Pancras, Angel, and
Essex Rd. It would then take over the NLL and run to Woolwich Arsenal
via a new tunnel from Silvertown (N Woolwich would close). The NLL
stations would require rebuilding to take the longer trains, so the
opportunity could be used to improve the interchange at Hackney (so that
passengers could walk between Hackney Central and Hackney Downs without
leaving the station). The opportunity should also be taken to upgrade
that section of line to 3 tracks, creating a dedicated freight route
from Stratford to Willesden.

A Northern Heights branch via Finsbury Park is also a possibility.

As with your proposal, the trains don't have to terminate at
Clapham*Junction. They could take over some of the services that
currently run to Waterloo.


(The numbering of the following lines may not indicate the best order to
build them in)
Line 3:
Tunnel mostly below the Circle Line from Paddington to Liverpool St then
via Whitechapel to Poplar. Surface and run to Custom House. Take over
the Woolwich branch from Crossrail 2. Also build another branch
alongside the DLR to Cyprus and on to Dagenham, from where it would take
over the Tilbury line. The Cyprus to Dagenham section could be part of
the DLR until the rest of Line 3 is built.

Line 4:
Tunnel from Waterloo (or more likely, somewhere beyond Vauxhall) to
Bethnal Green via Blackfriars, St.Pauls and Liverpool Street. This would
almost certainly require the demolishion of a few buildings, including
the new one at 1 London Wall.

Line 5: Tunnel from Moorgate (or Old Street) to South London via
London*Bridge.

Yet more lines may eventually be needed, depending on future
development.



As for the rest of the points you mentioned:

As an alternative to the Chelsea-Hackney Line, Mayor Ken Livingstone
talked about a Crossrail 3 between Euston and Waterloo and said this
may go ahead if it has a stronger case than Crossrail 2.

When did he say that?

March 2002.

He seems to have gone cold on the idea since.

The Central tunnel would run from Waterloo, stopping at Temple (at the
western end of the station) and Tottenham Court Road (with an additional
exit near Covent Garden / Leicester Square)

That's rather zigzaggy! Why not go via Holborn?

1) To serve the West End,

But in doing so, you'd be effectively duplicating an existing link (the
Northern Line). 'Tis better to provide new opportunities, especially
when a TCR detour would probably require a few buildings to be
demolished.

2) to interchange with Crossrail line one.

I think a line 1 station at Holborn would be a better way of doing that.
Unfortunately nobody else seems to agree with me.

From King's Cross the line would continue to Dalston Junction station
and Hackney Central station.

Do you mean Hackney Downs?

No an underground stop at / near the two, as in Crossrail 2 proposals

So the forced change of trains would be even more inconvenient!

The line would then surface near Clapton,
or if this is not possible an underground station at Clapton. Some
trains would then continue to Chingford,

Although you're not the first to suggest a Crossrail line take over the
Chingford branch, it doesn't seem such a good idea to me. The loss of a
direct service to the City would be very unpopular with many people who
moved to the area because of its good links to the City.

Is one change really that bad?

Yes, if it's not cross platform.

others to Stansted Airport.

With what stopping pattern?

Tottenham Hale, Bishops Stortford, Stansted Airport

Duplicating the Stansted Express. Why?

From Waterloo the line would surface between Vauxhall and Waterloo.

Did you have a surfacing location in mind?

No.

There's no obvious location that side of Vauxhall.

Crossrail 3 would then takeover the Wimbledon slow lines and serve
Vauxhall, Battersea (new platforms),

What's wrong with the old ones? Or are you saying that there should be
new platforms on the Victoria to Brixton line?

Are there platforms on the Wimbledon slow lines?

I thought there were, but checking the England Photographic Atlas I find
you're right - there aren't.

The rest of the service would have to terminate in an as
yet undecided location (possibly Clapham Junction - build some
reversing sidings there?).

Why?

So people can get on trains at somewhere like Vauxhall.

Why wouldn't they be able to do that if the trains went further?

In the North, the 4tph to Chessington South would go up to Watford
Junction, as would the unspecified 8tph (that terminates somewhere
along the line - Clapham Junction?). The remaining 12tph goes to
Stansted / Chingford (2tph to Stansted, 10tph to Chingford).

That would leave Chingford with an extremely irregular service! And why
only 2tph to Stansted? At that frequency you'd get all the disbenefits
of slower boardings (due to passengers' luggage) without the ridership
benefits that a frequent service to the airport would bring.

Unless you four track the Lee Valley line, you have to squeeze the
Stratford - Stansted / Hertford East services (to be added soon),
Cambridge / Hertford East- Liverpool Street and Stansted - Liverpool
Street.

The Lea Valley Line is by far the easiest line in London to four track.

Advantages:
· Relief for the Victoria Line,

Some, but not as much as Crossrail 2.

Maybe, but it reduces interchange at the busiest station on the line,
Victoria.

As would Crossrail 2.

(snip)

I read somewhere that when Waterloo international is abandoned they
would extend platforms to take 12 cars and some platforms at Waterloo
would disappear.

I consider a reduction in the total number of platforms very unlikely.

· Regeneration of Battersea, Vauxhall, Hackney, Clapton,
Wembley, Harlesden, Stonebridge Park, Willesden Junction, Chingford,
Walthamstow, Clapham Junction and Carpenders Park.

There might be regeneration in some of those places, but by no means all
of them. Walthamstow in particular would suffer from the loss of its
direct link to the City.

Walthamstow may lose its link to the city, but there are places that
have regenerated that do not have a direct link to the city. What about
Wandsworth?

Yes, there's regeneration in much of Inner London. However, I know of
nowhere where worsening the transport links has resulted in
regeneration.

But going underground at Clapham Junction enables line 2 to bring rail
services to parts of Battersea and Chelsea that have not previously had
them. There is nothing comparable in your proposal.

Battersea or Chelsea. Looking at the London Plan it seems Ken would
rather the line go through Battersea. Even if Crossrail 2 goes ahead,
the part of Battersea it serves will only be a few minutes walk from
Battersea Park station.

If Crossrail goes via Chelsea, it could have a station constructed on
the other (W) side of Battersea Park.

Also, Line 2 could surface at Dalston Junction.

And go where? Do you mean Dalston Kingsland?

No, there's no room to surface at Dalston Kingsland.

· A direct rail link between Waterloo and King's Cross.

There's a much cheaper (light rail) one on the drawing board!

Yes, but this may be cheaper / better than Crossrail 2 and CRT put
together.

'Tis not even as good as Crossrail 2 on its own!

· Avoids the problem of building a mainline station at
Piccadilly Circus

Just what exactly is the problem there?

Not enough space underground for a mainline station

I've heard that claim before, but am not convinced. Where exactly is
there not enough space?