gwr4090 wrote:
In article ,
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:

In message , Martin
Whelton writes

Do we know when construction work is due to start on the Piccadilly
extension to Terminal 5 as I understand that tunneling work was due to
be finished by next year. I also understand that Terminal 4 would be
temporaily closed during the construction period.


Tunnelling is well under way and I believe the station box is all but
finished.


Plans are advanced for the closure of the T4 loop to allow the T5
extension to be connected. I think the latest plan is around December.
I'll try and confirm today at work, but I think we're looking at about a
two year closure.


The latest edition of Rail implies that the the first Picadilly line
tunnel between T123 and T5 is already complete and the second tunnel is
about to start. Both Picadilly line and HEX will have twin track
connections to T5 with two platforms at T5 for each service and an option
of two further platforms for HEX. There is also an implication (it is not
entirely clear in the article) that HEX trains will serve T123 and T5
only. The plan to split HEX trains at T123 into T4 and T5 portions seems
to have been abandoned. Also the new Paddington-Heathrow stopping service
"Heathrow Connect" will turn round at T123 when it starts next year (ie it
will not serve T4). It will eventually be extended to T5. So it looks like
T4 will not be seeing many trains !

David

I was always under the impression that the Piccadilly station would have
*three* platforms, like Cockfosters and Uxbridge, to improve
termination capacity. I also heard that full overruns would be provided
to further improve turnaround capacity. Is this still the case?

Furthermore, what are some honest dates for the commencement of
Piccadilly services to T5?

Brad

Nigel Pendse wrote:
"Ben Nunn" wrote in message


"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

If one loop goes HX-T4-T123-HX and the other goes HX-T123-T5-HX,
then the diagram will need to resemble a pair of testicles at the
end of the line, no?

T5 will not be on a loop. Some trains will go HX-T4-T123-HX as now
and the others will go HX-T123-T5(reverse)-T123-HX


So how will that work with the two platforms at T123? Will one be used
exclusively for London-bound trains that have gone round the loop,
and the other for bi-directional trains on a single track extension
to T5?

Or will it be one platform be for T5 only, and the other for both
sets of London-bound trains? (which would make more sense to the
traveller, but be logistically more difficult to implement, and
result in a bizarre station where twice as many trains went in one
direction as t'other.)


I had assumed that it was a double tunnel from T123 to T5, with two
platforms at T5. I don't think a single tunnel could maintain the
required service frequency.

I've always heard that there will be twin tracks to T5, with *three* bay
platforms and full overruns to provide maximum termination capacity.


The T4 loop would connect with the eastbound (northern) tunnel just
before the T123 station. To do this, the rebuilt loop will presumably
have to dive under the west-bound (and maybe both) tunnel, whereas the
current version is on the level -- hence the long closure.



Brad

"gwr4090" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message , Martin
Whelton writes
Do we know when construction work is due to start on the Piccadilly
extension to Terminal 5 as I understand that tunneling work was due to
be finished by next year. I also understand that Terminal 4 would be
temporaily closed during the construction period.

Tunnelling is well under way and I believe the station box is all but
finished.

Plans are advanced for the closure of the T4 loop to allow the T5
extension to be connected. I think the latest plan is around December.
I'll try and confirm today at work, but I think we're looking at about a
two year closure.

The latest edition of Rail implies that the the first Picadilly line
tunnel between T123 and T5 is already complete and the second tunnel is
about to start. Both Picadilly line and HEX will have twin track
connections to T5 with two platforms at T5 for each service and an option
of two further platforms for HEX. There is also an implication (it is not
entirely clear in the article) that HEX trains will serve T123 and T5
only. The plan to split HEX trains at T123 into T4 and T5 portions seems
to have been abandoned.

So, another ****ing waste of existing infrastructure then? The Jubilee's
Green Park-Charing Cross (and tunnels almost as far as Aldwych) and the
Piccadilly's Holborn-Aldwych shuttle. Now the HEX T123-T4. Why not make use
of and expand existing expensively-tunnelled infrastructure instead of
mothballing it? This country makes me maaaaad!!!!

A complete joke.

Andy

Andy wrote:
"gwr4090" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
In message , Martin
Whelton writes
Do we know when construction work is due to start on the Piccadilly
extension to Terminal 5 as I understand that tunneling work was
due to be finished by next year. I also understand that Terminal 4
would be temporaily closed during the construction period.

Tunnelling is well under way and I believe the station box is all
but finished.

Plans are advanced for the closure of the T4 loop to allow the T5
extension to be connected. I think the latest plan is around
December. I'll try and confirm today at work, but I think we're
looking at about a two year closure.

The latest edition of Rail implies that the the first Picadilly line
tunnel between T123 and T5 is already complete and the second tunnel
is about to start. Both Picadilly line and HEX will have twin track
connections to T5 with two platforms at T5 for each service and an
option of two further platforms for HEX. There is also an
implication (it is not entirely clear in the article) that HEX
trains will serve T123 and T5 only. The plan to split HEX trains at
T123 into T4 and T5 portions seems to have been abandoned.

So, another ****ing waste of existing infrastructure then? The
Jubilee's Green Park-Charing Cross (and tunnels almost as far as
Aldwych) and the Piccadilly's Holborn-Aldwych shuttle. Now the HEX
T123-T4. Why not make use of and expand existing
expensively-tunnelled infrastructure instead of mothballing it? This
country makes me maaaaad!!!!

A complete joke.


Forward you complaints to BAA. IIRC they, or someone else, chose to resite
T5 away from its original location which would have been served by the T4
loop.

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message ...
So, another ****ing waste of existing infrastructure then? The
Jubilee's Green Park-Charing Cross (and tunnels almost as far as
Aldwych) and the Piccadilly's Holborn-Aldwych shuttle. Now the HEX
T123-T4. Why not make use of and expand existing
expensively-tunnelled infrastructure instead of mothballing it? This
country makes me maaaaad!!!!

A complete joke.


Forward you complaints to BAA. IIRC they, or someone else, chose to resite
T5 away from its original location which would have been served by the T4
loop.

WHy should that excuse a stupid decision taken by a TOC? There is no excuse
for closing T4. So alternate HEX trains would have alternate termini, BFD.
I'm sure passengers would cope as they're going to have to on the tube anyway.
Sorry , but the guy about is right , it is just more infrastructure being
binned for no good operational reason.

B2003

"Boltar" wrote in message
m
"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message
...
So, another ****ing waste of existing infrastructure then? The
Jubilee's Green Park-Charing Cross (and tunnels almost as far as
Aldwych) and the Piccadilly's Holborn-Aldwych shuttle. Now the HEX
T123-T4. Why not make use of and expand existing
expensively-tunnelled infrastructure instead of mothballing it? This
country makes me maaaaad!!!!

A complete joke.


Forward you complaints to BAA. IIRC they, or someone else, chose to
resite T5 away from its original location which would have been
served by the T4 loop.

WHy should that excuse a stupid decision taken by a TOC? There is no
excuse
for closing T4. So alternate HEX trains would have alternate termini,
BFD.
I'm sure passengers would cope as they're going to have to on the
tube anyway.
Sorry , but the guy about is right , it is just more infrastructure
being
binned for no good operational reason.

What TOC? HEX trains are opereated by BAA, who also paid for and own
the T4 tunnel/station.

"Boltar" wrote in message

WHy should that excuse a stupid decision taken by a TOC? There is no
excuse
for closing T4. So alternate HEX trains would have alternate termini, BFD.
I'm sure passengers would cope as they're going to have to on the tube
anyway.
Sorry , but the guy about is right , it is just more infrastructure being
binned for no good operational reason.


Because if the railway infrastructure is built in the place that the
builders have been told a new station will be wanted and then someone
decides to move it then there's not much the railway people can do about it
is there?

(Boltar) wrote in message om...
"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message ...
So, another ****ing waste of existing infrastructure then? The
Jubilee's Green Park-Charing Cross (and tunnels almost as far as
Aldwych) and the Piccadilly's Holborn-Aldwych shuttle. Now the HEX
T123-T4. Why not make use of and expand existing
expensively-tunnelled infrastructure instead of mothballing it? This
country makes me maaaaad!!!!

A complete joke.


Forward you complaints to BAA. IIRC they, or someone else, chose to resite
T5 away from its original location which would have been served by the T4
loop.

WHy should that excuse a stupid decision taken by a TOC? There is no excuse
for closing T4. So alternate HEX trains would have alternate termini, BFD.
I'm sure passengers would cope as they're going to have to on the tube anyway.
Sorry , but the guy about is right , it is just more infrastructure being
binned for no good operational reason.

I must be missing something. How exactly is anyone going to get from
T123 to T4 then? Currently the official way to transfer is HEX -- and
in that direction you'd have to change at Hatton Cross to get the
tube. It's pretty much a guarantee that TWO changes of train to get
from Padd to T4 is a non-starter.

I'd have to guess that they decided splitting the trains would take
too long (probably right) and they'll run alternate trains to each
destination. I can't believe for a moment that they'll close T4 HEX,
and I also find it hard to believe that they'd switch it to a shuttle
from T123, for the simple reason that people travelling to Heathrow
often have a LOT of luggage, and a change of train just isn't
acceptable.

If I were Heathrow Express, I'd run the slow service to T123 only
until T5 opens, simply because the (idiotic) single line to T4 can't
cope with it -- but after T5 opens, split both the express and slow
services 50/50 between T4 and T5. As and when Crossrail happens,
that's probably all T5 (assuming the line to T5 is double-track)

[And, by the way, the TOC operating HEX is BAA anyway...]

In article ,
Alistair Bell wrote:

I must be missing something. How exactly is anyone going to get from
T123 to T4 then? Currently the official way to transfer is HEX -- and
in that direction you'd have to change at Hatton Cross to get the
tube. It's pretty much a guarantee that TWO changes of train to get
from Padd to T4 is a non-starter.

I'd have to guess that they decided splitting the trains would take
too long (probably right) and they'll run alternate trains to each
destination. I can't believe for a moment that they'll close T4 HEX,
and I also find it hard to believe that they'd switch it to a shuttle
from T123, for the simple reason that people travelling to Heathrow
often have a LOT of luggage, and a change of train just isn't
acceptable.

I share your puzzlement about how T4 will be served by HEX after T5 opens,
but the details have yet to be announced. My expectation is that it might
indeed be a shuttle between T123 and T4. Passenger flow to T5 will need
more than a half hourly service.

If I were Heathrow Express, I'd run the slow service to T123 only
until T5 opens,

(which is the current plan)

simply because the (idiotic) single line to T4 can't
cope with it -- but after T5 opens, split both the express and slow
services 50/50 between T4 and T5.

I am not sure this will be possible, as there are no plans to double the
line to T4. The longer term plan is to run both HEX and Heathrow Connect
stoppers at 4tph each, with Crossrail and/or Airtrack taking over the
Heathrow Connect paths if they happen. It now appears that the premium HEX
service will continue independently of Crossrail/Airtrack.

As and when Crossrail happens, that's probably all T5 (assuming the line
to T5 is double-track).

The line to T5 will be double from the outset. T5 will have 2 platforms
initially for HEX/HC, with provision for a further 2 additional platforms
later.

David

In article , Ben Nunn
writes
Well quite. All of the above are multiple platform stations at which some
services from one direction terminate.

AFAIK, The new Heathrow 123 will be the only 'conventional' LUL through
station (e.g. one 'up' platform and one 'down') from which the number of
trains in each direction is unequal.

A quick think gives me:

Archway
Canons Park
Ealing Common
Farringdon (Circle)
Oakwood
Rayners Lane
Rickmansworth
Ruislip
Stonebridge Park
Tooting Broadway
Victoria (Victoria)
West Ham (Jubilee)
West Kensington
Whitechapel (ELL)
Willesden Green

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