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ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
Crossrail is at major risk of having its opening delayed by even
longer than already feared and requiring even more public money, it emerged today. The crisis-hit line has already soared £2.8bn in cost to £17.6bn and its opening is due between October 2020 and March 2021, the original December 2018 date having been abandoned a year ago. A series of high-level warnings by Crossrail’s independent watchdog, the engineering firm Jacobs, were due to be made public by Transport for London today. It is understood that these will reveal that the project faces additional “cost pressures and scheduling pressures” that make opening it within the promised six-month window and expanded budget even more challenging. They will raise concerns that the opening schedule remains “too optimistic” - though it is not thought that Jacobs calls for the date to be delayed further. Jacobs is understood to fear that a “number of longer-term risks may not be receiving the focus necessary to ensure that the schedule and cost are delivered in line with expectations”. A “persistent trend” in rising costs, low productivity levels, missed targets, and a lack of “robust” risk analysis are highlighted. Concerns about the new signalling and the new £1bn fleet of trains remain. One part of the scheme has been given a “red” rating. Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project’s transparency. The alerts relate to Jacobs analysis throughout April and May. .... continues in: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/crossrail-at-risk-of-being-delayed-even-further-a4188451.html |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
In message , at 14:44:13 on
Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project’s transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? -- Roland Perry |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
Basil Jet wrote:
On 12/07/2019 15:09, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:53:19 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project’s transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? It's not clear which politician was in charge: responsibility seems to have been shared between the DfT and TfL. Either way, and perhaps as a consequence, neither was providing much supervision or oversight. Khan now seems to be much more in charge and taking an interest, as it's clear that TfL will have to suffer the consequence of delays and overspends. From the Crossrail website: "About Crossrail Ltd Crossrail Limited, established in 2001, is the company that has been set up to build the new railway that will become known as the Elizabeth line when it opens through central London. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL)..." No hiding place for the Mayor!! I'm no fan of Labour or Khan, but it's by no means obvious that the blame lies with Khan, or Boris, or elsewhere. If the Mayor is being told everything's fine, how can they know otherwise? As I understand it, to avoid constant political interference, Crossrail was set up with quite a lot of autonomy for the management, so long as the project was on time and on budget. This gave the management a strong motivation to report that all was well long after things started to go wrong. In retrospect, it should have been obvious that some stations were obviously late, as was train testing, but I guess everyone was just happy to get reassuringly good news in the review meetings. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:48:05 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote: Basil Jet wrote: On 12/07/2019 15:09, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 14:53:19 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project’s transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? It's not clear which politician was in charge: responsibility seems to have been shared between the DfT and TfL. Either way, and perhaps as a consequence, neither was providing much supervision or oversight. Khan now seems to be much more in charge and taking an interest, as it's clear that TfL will have to suffer the consequence of delays and overspends. From the Crossrail website: "About Crossrail Ltd Crossrail Limited, established in 2001, is the company that has been set up to build the new railway that will become known as the Elizabeth line when it opens through central London. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL)..." No hiding place for the Mayor!! I'm no fan of Labour or Khan, but it's by no means obvious that the blame lies with Khan, or Boris, or elsewhere. If the Mayor is being told everything's fine, how can they know otherwise? Perhaps when Boris becomes PM he can repent for his sins as mayor and do everyone a favour by putting a bullet in HS2. A high speed line to complement the WCML might be a good idea, but not for the 11 figure sums being quoted. There are far better railway infrastructure projects that could be spent on IMO. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On 13/07/2019 09:55, Guy Gorton wrote:
A reasonable opinion but large areas of Buckinghamshire and Hertfordshire have already been disfigured by the works, so lets not make all that inconvenience be for nothing. Guy Gorton No, No, No ! Classic accountancy nostrum: "The first loss is the cheapest loss" i.e. when a project is delinquent, write off the costs to date and pull out asap. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
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ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
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ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On 13/07/2019 11:22, tim... wrote:
the fallacy of the sunk costs That (like loss aversion and status quo bias) is an issue with the mental state of decision takers. It's not an argument against decisions on whether or not to proceed based on objective assessments of the options as they stand now - taking account of both work already done and lessons from that work for the likely future costs. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself. Far better to negotiate themselves a lucrative long-term contract and then walk off into the sunset *with pockets bulging when it all goes tits up. michael adams *or at least until the next nice little earner comes along. .... |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
In message , at
14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself. I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, given your total confusion over roles displayed above. And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time. -- Roland Perry |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself. I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally involved in then Roland ? That should make a good start. given your total confusion over roles displayed above. As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed on time and within budget ? That's discounting projects such as the White Sea canal which made extensive use of slave labour. And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time. That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose. Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your enthusiasm somewhat. michael adams .... |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself. I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, given your total confusion over roles displayed above. And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time. I'm just looking for the opportunity to travel to Reading for free :-) tim |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
In message , at
14:49:51 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing, and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the contractors were doing. If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself. I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally involved in then Roland ? Several. That's my original day-job. given your total confusion over roles displayed above. As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed on time and within budget ? False dichotomy. First of all you have to arrive at a sensible time/budget prediction, and then monitor how it's going. Sometimes they over-run, but you need to know about it a great deal sooner than has happened on Crossrail. And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time. That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose. I'm critiquing based on my project management experience. Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your enthusiasm somewhat. The real question is, why didn't it dampen, much sooner, the enthusiasm of people who should have been able to see it was running so much later than claimed. "A delay to the project only first became public in the summer of last year, just weeks before the railway was supposed to open in December 2018" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766 Now predicted to be 2021 or later. Some of it is really simple, such as: "Software to allow trains to run on the new Crossrail line does not yet exist and vital equipment is not in place, five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have opened, bosses have admitted." It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed to run the trains been delivered yet?". -- Roland Perry |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
tim... wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself. I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, given your total confusion over roles displayed above. And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time. I'm just looking for the opportunity to travel to Reading for free :-) You should get that later this year. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:54:37 +0100, Robin wrote:
On 13/07/2019 11:22, tim... wrote: the fallacy of the sunk costs That (like loss aversion and status quo bias) is an issue with the mental state of decision takers. It's not an argument against decisions on whether or not to proceed based on objective assessments of the options as they stand now - taking account of both work already done and lessons from that work for the likely future costs. I did not mention costs, merely inconvenience. Costs there have certainly been but not payable by the public purse but by those inconvenienced. Roads closed, diversions in place (one road closed for 9 years we are told - a road that I often used but now have a significant detour). Guy Gorton |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:49:51 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing, and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the contractors were doing. Really ? So its all Khan's fault ? According to this " Both the DfT and Transport for London (TfL) are joint sponsors of the project, which is run through an "arms-length" body, Crossrail Ltd." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367 So are you saying that's wrong, and that the Department for Transport had no role to play in all of this ? As I notice you haven't mentioned them up to now. If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself. I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally involved in then Roland ? Several. That's my original day-job. given your total confusion over roles displayed above. As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed on time and within budget ? False dichotomy. First of all you have to arrive at a sensible time/budget prediction, and then monitor how it's going. Sometimes they over-run, but you need to know about it a great deal sooner than has happened on Crossrail. And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time. That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose. I'm critiquing based on my project management experience. Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your enthusiasm somewhat. The real question is, why didn't it dampen, much sooner, the enthusiasm of people who should have been able to see it was running so much later than claimed. "A delay to the project only first became public in the summer of last year, just weeks before the railway was supposed to open in December 2018" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766 Now predicted to be 2021 or later. Some of it is really simple, such as: "Software to allow trains to run on the new Crossrail line does not yet exist and vital equipment is not in place, five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have opened, bosses have admitted." It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed to run the trains been delivered yet?". But the delivery of the software and associated equipment may have been dependent on the completion of other parts of the project which was in the hands of other contractors. " five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have opened, bosses have admitted." That doesn't really add anything by way of explanation does it ? Maybe monitoring those aspects of the project were the DfT's {neglected) responsibility. Who's to know ? Do you ? michael adams .... -- Roland Perry |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
michael adams wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:49:51 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing, and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the contractors were doing. Really ? So its all Khan's fault ? According to this " Both the DfT and Transport for London (TfL) are joint sponsors of the project, which is run through an "arms-length" body, Crossrail Ltd." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367 So are you saying that's wrong, and that the Department for Transport had no role to play in all of this ? As I notice you haven't mentioned them up to now. I mentioned it upthread, but Roland magisterially dismissed my comment. Me: The DfT is certainly involved, too. Roland: In as subsidiary role. The Mayor's at the top of the pile. I didn't bother pursuing it, as Roland's in a particularly argumentative mood today, even by his standards. If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself. I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally involved in then Roland ? Several. That's my original day-job. given your total confusion over roles displayed above. As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed on time and within budget ? False dichotomy. First of all you have to arrive at a sensible time/budget prediction, and then monitor how it's going. Sometimes they over-run, but you need to know about it a great deal sooner than has happened on Crossrail. And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time. That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose. I'm critiquing based on my project management experience. Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your enthusiasm somewhat. The real question is, why didn't it dampen, much sooner, the enthusiasm of people who should have been able to see it was running so much later than claimed. "A delay to the project only first became public in the summer of last year, just weeks before the railway was supposed to open in December 2018" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766 Now predicted to be 2021 or later. Some of it is really simple, such as: "Software to allow trains to run on the new Crossrail line does not yet exist and vital equipment is not in place, five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have opened, bosses have admitted." It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed to run the trains been delivered yet?". But the delivery of the software and associated equipment may have been dependent on the completion of other parts of the project which was in the hands of other contractors. " five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have opened, bosses have admitted." That doesn't really add anything by way of explanation does it ? Maybe monitoring those aspects of the project were the DfT's {neglected) responsibility. Who's to know ? Do you ? Well, Roland obviously thinks he knows everything there is to know about Crossrail… |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 09:55:43 +0100
Guy Gorton wrote: On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:31:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote: Perhaps when Boris becomes PM he can repent for his sins as mayor and do everyone a favour by putting a bullet in HS2. A high speed line to complement the WCML might be a good idea, but not for the 11 figure sums being quoted. There are far better railway infrastructure projects that could be spent on IMO. A reasonable opinion but large areas of Buckinghamshire and Hertfordshire have already been disfigured by the works, so lets not make all that inconvenience be for nothing. Better to stop now before the real sums start to be spent. And the trees will grow back. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On 13/07/2019 14:49, michael adams wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? How long has Khan been mayor? When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:49:51 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing, and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the contractors were doing. If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself. I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally involved in then Roland ? Several. That's my original day-job. infrastructure ????? |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
"Guy Gorton" wrote in message ... On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:54:37 +0100, Robin wrote: On 13/07/2019 11:22, tim... wrote: the fallacy of the sunk costs That (like loss aversion and status quo bias) is an issue with the mental state of decision takers. It's not an argument against decisions on whether or not to proceed based on objective assessments of the options as they stand now - taking account of both work already done and lessons from that work for the likely future costs. I did not mention costs, merely inconvenience. inconvenience *is* a cost just not one borne by the developer tim |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
In message , at 09:35:21 on Sun, 14 Jul
2019, tim... remarked: I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing, and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the contractors were doing. .... So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally involved in then Roland ? Several. That's my original day-job. infrastructure ????? There's more to infrastructure than people with muddy boots (hence perhaps the meme "there's three kinds: good engineers, bad engineers, and civil engineers"). To expand on Mark's example: "This supermarket is opening next week, but you are clearly still working on the car park, will it be ready for the Mayor to cut the ribbon?" Yes. The building itself was finished last month And the shelving and fridges/feezers? All installed and ready What about the stock? Arrives on Wednesday, because we need access across the car park first. But we planned for that, and have drafted in extra shelf-stocking staff, and it'll all be ready on time. And the tills? Yes, all installed and tested. Anything else I should know? Weeeell, it'll be cash-only the first six weeks. "What!!" Yes, the tills don't have connectivity for the credit card transactions But I thought you said the tills had been tested. Yes, and that was when we discovered the existing broadband wasn't adequate. But we've ordered it from BT. And their lead time is six weeks. Partly because they'll need to dig a trench, erm, across the new car park... -- Roland Perry |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On 13/07/2019 16:11, Guy Gorton wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:54:37 +0100, Robin wrote: On 13/07/2019 11:22, tim... wrote: the fallacy of the sunk costs That (like loss aversion and status quo bias) is an issue with the mental state of decision takers. It's not an argument against decisions on whether or not to proceed based on objective assessments of the options as they stand now - taking account of both work already done and lessons from that work for the likely future costs. I did not mention costs, merely inconvenience. Costs there have certainly been but not payable by the public purse but by those inconvenienced. Roads closed, diversions in place (one road closed for 9 years we are told - a road that I often used but now have a significant detour). I was commenting on "the fallacy of the sunk costs". But I agree with tim... that inconvenience is a cost. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:33:42 +0100, Graeme Wall
wrote: On 13/07/2019 14:49, michael adams wrote: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? How long has Khan been mayor? When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing contractors? |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
In message , at 12:42:53 on
Sun, 14 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: How long has Khan been mayor? When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing contractors? No-one suggested politicians should choose Crossrail[1] contractors. [But look on the bright side, having grasped the wrong end of the stick, you are at least consistently and persistently waving it around, despite all attempts to persuade you otherwise] [1] Although when contractors are called "National Rail franchisees", there's more than a suggestion that politicians called the SoS have a say. Maybe he should leave it entirely to his civil servants? Was it Adonis, who had previously meddled in the botched Academies project, who started this trend with NXEC? Oh no, it was Prescott who fast-tracked the Stagecoach involvement in Virgin West Coast, when they'd so publicly and embarrassingly messed up the 1998 Labour Conference in Blackpool. Not sure why this story is filed under "Entertainment": https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e.../profile-john- prescott-class-warrior-at-bay-1103851.html -- Roland Perry |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:42:53 on Sun, 14 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: How long has Khan been mayor? When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing contractors? No-one suggested politicians should choose Crossrail[1] contractors. Didn't you just blame Khan for exactly that decision [in the section you over-snipped]? [But look on the bright side, having grasped the wrong end of the stick, you are at least consistently and persistently waving it around, despite all attempts to persuade you otherwise] [1] Although when contractors are called "National Rail franchisees", there's more than a suggestion that politicians called the SoS have a say. Maybe he should leave it entirely to his civil servants? Was it Adonis, who had previously meddled in the botched Academies project, who started this trend with NXEC? He had nothing to do with choosing TOCs. Civil servants choose them. Oh no, it was Prescott who fast-tracked the Stagecoach involvement in Virgin West Coast, when they'd so publicly and embarrassingly messed up the 1998 Labour Conference in Blackpool. Rubbish, as discussed here ad nauseum. Prescott had absolutely nothing to do with the deal between Souter and Branson. I don't understand why you persist in this easily-disproved fantasy version of history you dreamed up? And, BTW, Branson has just done it again, selling 49% of his sub-orbital joy-ride company to another billionaire. It's his standard business model with companies he starts (as opposed to ones he just licenses the brand to). Not sure why this story is filed under "Entertainment": Because it involves Prezza. https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e.../profile-john- prescott-class-warrior-at-bay-1103851.html No mention of Stagecoach in that article. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
Recliner wrote:
When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing contractors? Amongst the present generation of Career politicians are there any who do have the the right experience. Earnest Marples used the laxer requirements of the era to take advantage of his position to the benefit of the company he had created but at least did actually deliver. Since then with rules on expenses, conflicts of interest,shareholdings in firms that may benefit from a government decision coming under scrutiny being much more stringent such a suitably qualified person may decide the risk of falling foul of any and end up in front of a committee to answer questions or even face criminal charges just isn’t worth the bother, remuneration in a political position may appear high by the standards of many but compared to what high earners in business can accumulate it isn’t that spectacular. Ultimately though what would serve the public interest better. A roguish Politicians from the business world who steers the public’s moneys into interests he his known and associated with but delivers or the career politicians many of whom seem to have progressed from top end public school ,University,lightish jobs such as journalism until they get chosen as an MP on personality rather than experience and then work their way up into higher positions. If a project costs the taxpayer £50 billion and the minister happens to have have a few shares in the construction interests that built it does that matter in the bigger picture if the project is achieved on time and in budget compared to one where the the same £50 billion has been spent but due to lack of suitable knowledge amongst the career politicians who have to depend on what they are told by others the project doesn’t run smooth and needs more taxpayers money to complete. Perhaps the cost of a few duck houses or similar silly abuses of the system would be worth paying if persons of the right calibre are attracted to become decision makers in politics. GH |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote: When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing contractors? Amongst the present generation of Career politicians are there any who do have the the right experience. Earnest Marples used the laxer requirements of the era to take advantage of his position to the benefit of the company he had created but at least did actually deliver. Since then with rules on expenses, conflicts of interest,shareholdings in firms that may benefit from a government decision coming under scrutiny being much more stringent such a suitably qualified person may decide the risk of falling foul of any and end up in front of a committee to answer questions or even face criminal charges just isn’t worth the bother, remuneration in a political position may appear high by the standards of many but compared to what high earners in business can accumulate it isn’t that spectacular. Ultimately though what would serve the public interest better. A roguish Politicians from the business world who steers the public’s moneys into interests he his known and associated with but delivers or the career politicians many of whom seem to have progressed from top end public school ,University,lightish jobs such as journalism until they get chosen as an MP on personality rather than experience and then work their way up into higher positions. If a project costs the taxpayer £50 billion and the minister happens to have have a few shares in the construction interests that built it does that matter in the bigger picture if the project is achieved on time and in budget compared to one where the the same £50 billion has been spent but due to lack of suitable knowledge amongst the career politicians who have to depend on what they are told by others the project doesn’t run smooth and needs more taxpayers money to complete. Perhaps the cost of a few duck houses or similar silly abuses of the system would be worth paying if persons of the right calibre are attracted to become decision makers in politics. Interestingly, if Boris wins, he'll be taking a pay cut of around £750,000 pa compared to what he was earning as a backbencher. Of course, in his current position, the flat with a friendly neighbour might come in handy… |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On 15/07/2019 10:30, Marland wrote:
Earnest Marples I like it. Did your spell-checker do it? -- Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to Black Affair - 2008 - It's Real |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
Basil Jet wrote:
On 15/07/2019 10:30, Marland wrote: Earnest Marples I like it. Did your spell-checker do it? Probably, I changed to News Tap about 18 months ago after using agent for years when the laptop died and I replaced it with an I pad. Must look into the settings and see if the spell checker can be turned off as it drives me potty. GH |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
Marland wrote:
Basil Jet wrote: On 15/07/2019 10:30, Marland wrote: Earnest Marples I like it. Did your spell-checker do it? Probably, I changed to News Tap about 18 months ago after using agent for years when the laptop died and I replaced it with an I pad. Must look into the settings and see if the spell checker can be turned off as it drives me potty. The spill chucker is part of the keyboard, not the app you're using it in. Depending on which keyboard you're using, you may be able to turn off or tune the auto correct feature. The keyboard I'm currently using (Padkeys) has five levels of checking/correction available. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
In message , at 15:47:50 on Sat, 13 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked: are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing, and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the contractors were doing. Really ? So its all Khan's fault ? According to this " Both the DfT and Transport for London (TfL) are joint sponsors of the project, which is run through an "arms-length" body, Crossrail Ltd." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367 So are you saying that's wrong, and that the Department for Transport had no role to play in all of this ? As I notice you haven't mentioned them up to now. I mentioned it upthread, but Roland magisterially dismissed my comment. I didn't contest it, if that's what you mean. Me: The DfT is certainly involved, too. Roland: In as subsidiary role. The Mayor's at the top of the pile. Of course the DfT is involved, because the majority of the Crossrail route is on existing NR corridors. Perhaps you have over-read the word "joint" to mean "equal". I didn't bother pursuing it, as Roland's in a particularly argumentative mood today, even by his standards. If by "argumentative" you mean sticking to my guns that the Mayor has he primary supervisory role, not one anything to do with choosing contractors (where you get the idea I suggested that, I have no idea). -- Roland Perry |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
In message , at 16:12:56 on Sat, 13 Jul
2019, michael adams remarked: It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed to run the trains been delivered yet?". But the delivery of the software and associated equipment may have been dependent on the completion of other parts of the project which was in the hands of other contractors. That's not the point. When you are checking the progress of a project there are certain easily defined milestones. One which crops up over and over again for new trains is "the software". And even if all the tunnels and platforms were ready on time, without trains it's a bit embarrassing to have an opening ceremony. But I digress. Having established that the software hasn't even been delivered, at a time when normally one would have expected it to be well into the testing phase, that should *ring an alarm bell*. Later on, suitable questions can be asked about *why* it's all gone pear-shaped (and why the Mayor wasn't warned about this earlier). Very occasionally the answer will come back "actually, we are confident the software will arrive in two weeks time, and against all the odds we'll have finished testing it in eight weeks time". At which point the project auditing person can say "OK, let's set up a conference call for 15 days time, and pencil one in for nine week's time, to see if it's all still on schedule". Actually, you wouldn't; because even if the 15day call went well, you'd schedule another for perhaps six weeks. -- Roland Perry |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 13/07/2019 14:49, michael adams wrote: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? How long has Khan been mayor? When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much involved with the governance of the Crossrail project: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205 |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: On 13/07/2019 14:49, michael adams wrote: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? How long has Khan been mayor? When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much involved with the governance of the Crossrail project: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205 According to that article it’s 60 miles from Reading to Heathrow?!? Anna Noyd-Dryver |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
In message , at 08:35:17 on Fri, 19 Jul
2019, Recliner remarked: It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much involved with the governance of the Crossrail project: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205 No it isn't. It just means they are covering their arse with a reflex action when people suggest they should be pulling their rather small levers inside TfL more strongly. -- Roland Perry |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On 19/07/2019 09:35, Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: On 13/07/2019 14:49, michael adams wrote: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:00:38 on Sat, 13 Jul 2019, michael adams remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 14:44:13 on Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency. Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge the last three and a bit years? Being in charge ? Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London. You are confusing strategic and operational. Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole. The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic. But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational. The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within budget. If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed to consider when tendering for the project. Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? How long has Khan been mayor? When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much involved with the governance of the Crossrail project: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205 So the answers are 2016 2009 Before 2009 Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors? Boris was mayor when it started but Livingstone was mayor in the actual run up, when, presumably, the contractors were appointed. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
On 14/07/2019 14:19, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:42:53 on Sun, 14 Jul 2019, Recliner remarked: How long has Khan been mayor? When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing contractors? No-one suggested politicians should choose Crossrail[1] contractors. Yes they did, hence my questions -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
In message , at 10:01:02 on Sat, 20 Jul
2019, Graeme Wall remarked: Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ? How long has Khan been mayor? When did Crossrail start? When were the contractors appointed? It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much involved with the governance of the Crossrail project: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205 So the answers are 2016 2009 Before 2009 Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors? I thought this red herring had died. When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors? -- Roland Perry |
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