Birching, it's the only language these scumbags understand, (pulls on
dirty old mac to go to the conservative party conference, no one will
know it's me)

Zac wrote:
Hi everyone

My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.

He bought a ticket from Harpenden to London with a Young Persons Discount
railcard. His Young persons had expired a couple of days ago. Not sure if
he realised if it had or not.

Two men in suits with Thameslink ID's (Undercover RPI's) checked tickets,
and said his ticket was invalid as YP was out of date. Would this
constitute fare evasion / another offence ?

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to court.

Any advice on the penalties etc ?

I will confirm all these points when I speak to my colleague.

"Mikael Armstrong" wrote in message
...
In order to commit fraud, you normally have to knowingly trying to deceive
someone. It does not seem to be the case that it was intentional here.

Indeed not, Mikael. Something similar happened to me a couple of years ago.
The plea had to be guilty as the named offence was carrying an invalid
ticket or something similar. However, on the plea form, I wrote that if the
offence had been "knowingly carrying an invalid ticket with intent to
defraud" I would be pleading not guilty. When it came to court, the
magistrate told me that intention is taken into account, suggested that I
change my plea and offered to reschedule the hearing. So I did. At the
rescheduled hearing, a different magistrate threw the case out. That might
be useful knowledge for this chap on the Thameslink.

L
-----------------------------------------------
Louis Barfe - www.louisbarfe.com

"Henry" wrote in message
...

Surely whoever sold him the ticket is at fault for not spotting the out of
date railcard.


When did this country ditch the idea of personal responsibility?

Surely if you make a mistake put up your hand and pay the penalty.

DFF

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:34:44 +0100, "Darren"
wrote:

Surely if you make a mistake put up your hand and pay the penalty.

Indeed. The *appropriate* penalty, which in my mind here is a Penalty
Fare, not prosecution, as it seems clear there was no intent to
defraud.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

Annabel Smyth wrote:

Mikael Armstrong wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 23 Sep 2004:


The railway companies would be better off ensuring that they have working
ticket machines, enough of them and manned booths. Perhaps even ticket
machines on trains. I have had to get on trains many times without a ticket
and try and buy one later, as the machines were out of order and the ticket
offices closed. The real freeloaders are few and far between.


They do exist! I remember in Paris, before magnetic screening was
introduced by after the "tricoteuses" had stopped punching tickets
manually,

Do you mean poinçonneur/-euse[1] and, if not, what's the difference?

Dave

[1] As in http://www.paroles.net/chansons/20276.htm

"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:54:26 GMT, "Malcolm & Nika"
wrote:

I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He
was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room', sounds
very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone
call?

Is it legal for for him to be detained by RPIs (as opposed to BTP) for
longer than is necessary to verify name and address?


You are assuming he was actually detained rather than being asked to
accompany them to the office for his details to be verified and further
questioned asked.

Dave Newt wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 23 Sep 2004:



Annabel Smyth wrote:

Mikael Armstrong wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 23 Sep 2004:

The railway companies would be better off ensuring that they have
working
ticket machines, enough of them and manned booths. Perhaps even ticket
machines on trains. I have had to get on trains many times without a ticket
and try and buy one later, as the machines were out of order and the ticket
offices closed. The real freeloaders are few and far between.

They do exist! I remember in Paris, before magnetic screening was
introduced by after the "tricoteuses" had stopped punching tickets
manually,

Do you mean poinçonneur/-euse[1] and, if not, what's the difference?

I do, but I think they were popularly referred to as "tricoteuses" -
could be wrong, though.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 11 September 2004

In message , Neil Williams
writes

Surely if you make a mistake put up your hand and pay the penalty.

Indeed. The *appropriate* penalty, which in my mind here is a Penalty
Fare, not prosecution, as it seems clear there was no intent to
defraud.

Does it?

You are in possession of all the facts in this case then, and can
determine intent?

Just, maybe, perhaps he thought he could get away with it so didn't
bother to renew his card.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

"Steve Fitzgerald" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Neil Williams
writes

Surely if you make a mistake put up your hand and pay the penalty.

Indeed. The *appropriate* penalty, which in my mind here is a Penalty
Fare, not prosecution, as it seems clear there was no intent to
defraud.

Does it?

You are in possession of all the facts in this case then, and can
determine intent?

Just, maybe, perhaps he thought he could get away with it so didn't
bother to renew his card.

Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. However unless he admitted knowing the card
had expired I don't see how they can prove intent. If the card was 2 months
of out of date maybe, but not a few days.

Peter Smyth

--- "Steve Fitzgerald" wrote:

Just, maybe, perhaps he thought he could get away with it so didn't
bother to renew his card.

I thought this country had a system of "innocent until proven guilty". Not
"innocent unless just, maybe, guilty".