"Mait001" wrote in message
...
I was going to start a thread on the subject of Terminal 4 closure
but since
this tjhread already exists, I hope I may be permitted to offer the
following
opinion.

I have just read the TFL leaflet "Heathrow by Tue" which deals with
the
closure, between January 2005 and September 2006. The most startling
sentence
is "There are 33 stairs at Hatton Cross Station".

Those 8 words are enough to ensure that nobody with any luggage (and
a fair
number of the rest of us, including the aged, disabled, those with
children
etc.) is going to use the Mickey Mouse make-do-and mend
"replacement" bus
service.


33 steps isn't that far, though, probably no worse than any stairs
they may have had to use at the station they boarded the train from.
And, as you point out later on, for people with heavy luggage, there
will be people to assist.
What you did not mention, is the option for passengers to stay on the
train to T1,2,3 station and then get Heathrow Express on to terminal
4, without any steps to traverse.


The irony is that all this disruption is being caused by the alleged
lack of
capacity at Heathrow, hence the building of Terminal 5. Do the twits
responsible for this debacle really not give a fig for the massive
inconvenience being caused to millions of passengers whilst the
closure
operates?


I'm sure they do understand, hence the replacement bus service, and
the publicity of the works. Since Terminal 5 is happening, how would
you propose extending the Picadilly line to that terminal without an
enforced closure of parts of the line. Or would you rather the
Terminal 5 passengers (when complete) are inconvenienced by poor rail
links when it opens, just so people wanting Terminal 4 aren't
inconvenienced now.

What would you propose to do ?

In message , Matt Wheeler
writes

I'm sure they do understand, hence the replacement bus service, and the
publicity of the works. Since Terminal 5 is happening, how would you
propose extending the Picadilly line to that terminal without an
enforced closure of parts of the line. Or would you rather the Terminal
passengers (when complete) are inconvenienced by poor rail links when
it opens, just so people wanting Terminal 4 aren't inconvenienced now.

What would you propose to do ?
Seeing this debate is really quite an eye opener. Whilst I worked on
the tube (late 60s & early 70s) there were no rail services of any kind
with very little complaint from punters, but now they've had a choice of
Heathrow express or the Piccadilly line for years suddenly there is
uproar because a little bit needs to be closed to improve access. What
petty minded those of you lucky enough to have public transport are.
--
Clive.

now they've had a choice of
Heathrow express or the Piccadilly line for years suddenly there is
uproar because a little bit needs to be closed to improve access.

The logical conclusion of your argument is that, since London had no public
transport whatsoever prior to the Victorians, if we closed down all public
transport for a few years, whilst all road junctions and bottlenecks were
sorted out, we would all in the long run be better off and should not be so
small-minded as to complain about the few years in which we would endure no
public transport whatsoever. All in the name of the light at the end of the
tunnel!

The point I am making is the ill-thought-out way in which the disruption is
being "handled" by TFL etc.

Just like the nonsense at St. Pancras! Has anyone tried getting a Northbound
train from there in the morning peak? It's like walking against a tidal-wave of
Southbound passengers for about half a mile before one even gets to the new
platforms!

It is a complete lack of "joined-up" thinking.

Marc.

"Mait001" wrote in message
...
Just like the nonsense at St. Pancras! Has anyone tried getting a
Northbound
train from there in the morning peak? It's like walking against a
tidal-wave of
Southbound passengers for about half a mile before one even gets to the
new
platforms!

Never even been into the new St. Pancras, but I travel to and from King's
Cross Suburban on a daily basis, and know exactly what you mean.


It is a complete lack of "joined-up" thinking.

Indeed. I am convinced that the redevelopment of King's Cross and St.
Pancras is going to turn out to be one of the biggest failures of all time.

It is a complete lack of "joined-up" thinking.

Indeed. I am convinced that the redevelopment of King's Cross and St.
Pancras is going to turn out to be one of the biggest failures of all time.


Quite so.

Marc.

Clive Coleman wrote:
Seeing this debate is really quite an eye opener. Whilst I worked
on
the tube (late 60s & early 70s) there were no rail services of any
kind
with very little complaint from punters, but now they've had a choice
of

Oh come off it. Back in the late 60s Heathrow was barely past being a
small
rural airport and package holidays were almost non existant never mind
the
current vogue for long distance travel. There were hardly any punters
to
complain!

B2003

33 steps isn't that far, though, probably no worse than any stairs
they may have had to use at the station they boarded the train from.

Not really: an increasingly large number of stations are now fully- disabled
compliant, as presumably ALL will have to be sooner or later. Or is it just
Routemasters that have to be abolished in the name of disability compliance?

And, as you point out later on, for people with heavy luggage, there
will be people to assist.

And I too believe in Santa Clause!

What you did not mention, is the option for passengers to stay on the
train to T1,2,3 station and then get Heathrow Express on to terminal
4, without any steps to traverse.

Is it really the case that nobody will have to use steps to get to the railway
platforms, whichever platform is used by the arriving Piccadilly Line train?
If so, I agree that this will be CONSIDERABLY easier (depending on the
frequency of the railway trains) than the bus nonsense.

Since Terminal 5 is happening, how would
you propose extending the Picadilly line to that terminal without an
enforced closure of parts of the line.

It's not the enforced closure of the line (although I fail to see how
installing a set of points and associated tunnel branching can take all of 18
months) that I object to as the ill-thought situation between Hatton Cross and
Heathrow.

What would you propose to do ?


Install lifts or escalators at Hatton Cross for a start!

If the poor District Line passengers can endure years of midget-sized platform
space at Earl's Court for years for lifts to be installed there, surely the
money could have been found for lifts at Hatton Cross?

Marc.

Mait001 wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 18 Dec 2004:

Someone else, whose attribution has been snipped, wrote:

What you did not mention, is the option for passengers to stay on the
train to T1,2,3 station and then get Heathrow Express on to terminal
4, without any steps to traverse.

Is it really the case that nobody will have to use steps to get to the railway
platforms, whichever platform is used by the arriving Piccadilly Line train?
If so, I agree that this will be CONSIDERABLY easier (depending on the
frequency of the railway trains) than the bus nonsense.

Indeed - I can't imagine why anybody would go any other way. I
certainly wouldn't. Not that I usually go to Heathrow that way, anyway,
but I like the Heathrow Express between the terminals! Think how
crowded those buses are going to be.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 18 December 2004

"Mait001" wrote in message
...
It's not the enforced closure of the line (although I fail to see how
installing a set of points and associated tunnel branching can take all of
18
months)

I wondered this too, given that similar jobs for the Victoria and Jubilee
lines were done with closures lasting no more than a few hours. However, I
understand that there are major problems with water at the site of the T5
junction, and for this reason a quite complex engineering solution is
required.


Install lifts or escalators at Hatton Cross for a start!

It would actually be pretty cheap and easy to install lifts at HC. Perhaps
this is a missed opportunity.

David Splett wrote:
"Mait001" wrote in message
...

It's not the enforced closure of the line (although I fail to see
how installing a set of points and associated tunnel branching can
take all of 18 months)

I wondered this too, given that similar jobs for the Victoria and
Jubilee lines were done with closures lasting no more than a few
hours. However, I understand that there are major problems with
water at the site of the T5 junction, and for this reason a quite
complex engineering solution is required.

There are some details in this month's Modern Railways (page 52). The
ground at the junction site consists of water-bearing gravel, and
conventional techniques to build a step-plate junction would risk a
collapse of the existing tunnel. "At the site of the existing junction,
the ground is being opened up for the construction of a big coffer dam
extending 25 metres down. ... Once complete,this box will then hold the
junction." TBMs will drill towards the site from the T5 end, but the
final breakthrough will be done outwards from the box. Then they have
the task of restoring the concrete aircraft taxiway over the box. In
the circumstances, 20 months seems reasonable.

Did I fall asleep at LURS in November, or was this important information
omitted from the talk on the T5 extension?

Install lifts or escalators at Hatton Cross for a start!

It would actually be pretty cheap and easy to install lifts at HC.
Perhaps this is a missed opportunity.

Based on the Earl's Court experience, I'm not sure about the cheap and
easy bit. Anyway, a couple of small lifts wouldn't be very efficient at
dealing with lots of people with heavy baggage all arriving together.

The missed opportunity, in my view, is the failure to provide adequate
publicity of the step-free route via T123 and HEx. It is not mentioned
at all on the poster* (customers are advised to phone for advice on
step-free routes), though it is eventualy mentioned on the new "Heathrow
by Tube" leaflet** if you read far enough.

* http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/pdf/Heathow-closure-poster.pdf

** http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/pdf/Heathrow-T4-%20leaflet.pdf

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)