Plus has Sudbury Hill Harrow looks like it loses it's 'limited service'
station symbol simply because it's incompatible with the 'interchange
station' symbol.

Odd. This happens at some stations (Wimbledon) but not others
(Stratford)...

A brief timetable check suggests it doesn't benefit
from anything more than a train an hour off-peak. I'm all for pointing
out the proximity of stations to one another on a map, but in this
instance it looks like the passenger both wins and loses in the battle
for gleaning useful travel information from this map.

Joe wrote:
gwr4090 wrote:
But no services shown out of St Pancras ?

Probably because (Midland Mainline) services out of St Pancras dont
stop anywhere inside the London Connections map area, the same as GNER
services from Kings X are not shown[1]. Though, FGW services aren't
shown[1], and I seem to remember they had a select few services
stopping at Slough.

[1] All these services Are shown on the Ldn & SE map on the reverse
though, like normal.

St Pancras was only shown as having Thameslink services during the
blockade. |I've just checked and the pre-blockade London Connections
map (June 2004) shows St Pancras in the same manner as this new (May
2005) map, i.e. without any services running from it.

1577+2260 wrote:
On 7 Jun 2005 02:24:00 -0700, "Rupert Candy"
wrote:

- New limited SET service between Elephant & Castle and Herne Hill

About time too - that service is much less 'limited' than some shown on
that map (Streatham Hill-Tulse Hill and New Beckenham-Beckenham
Junction spring to mind), and is heavily used, but I don't believe it's
ever been shown before.

It appears that in this new version they've decided to show all[1]
TOCs' peak services, whereas previously they didn't bother if the peak
extras didn't cover any completely new routes. So for example in the
case of Southern via Bookham, it didn't actually cover any new links
or stations, so omitting it didn't remove any possible journey
opportunities from the map, whereas the Beckenham connection provided
a unique service. So they seem to have moved from being tidier to
being more comprehensive.


[1] Someone's going to notice an exception now, aren't they?

I haven't seen the new map yet, but it sounds like a lot of the old
inconsistencies have finally been corrected.

This isn't an exception as such, but a regular off-peak service which
was never shown was Weybridge to Waterloo via Brentford, while they
showed the one train a day from woking to Staines or whatever. It's
different from the other examples in that it's not a peak service that
they omitted.

Hat that been fixed now as well?

What about the South East map in the Chislehurst area? Does that show
a junction now? That was strangely removed not that long ago and never
came back, even as a restricted service (Cannon Street to Ramsgate
etc), possibly around the time that all Maidstone East Services went
from Victoria (with the introduction of 365s).

Peter Masson wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote

Plus has Sudbury Hill Harrow looks like it loses it's 'limited service'
station symbol simply because it's incompatible with the 'interchange
station' symbol. A brief timetable check suggests it doesn't benefit
from anything more than a train an hour off-peak.

Which is a lot more than the very limited peak only service it had for many
years until recently.

Peter

Fair point. 1TPH, whilst a bit sparse, still counts as a 'full' station
rather than a 'limited service' station. 'Limited service' stations
seem to be those only serverd by peak trains.

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005, asdf wrote:

Plus has Sudbury Hill Harrow looks like it loses it's 'limited service'
station symbol simply because it's incompatible with the 'interchange
station' symbol.

Odd. This happens at some stations (Wimbledon) but not others
(Stratford)...

Odd indeed.

The root of the problem is that they don't have orthogonal visual codes
for limitedness and interchangeness: a normal station is a filled coloured
blob, a limited-service station is a hollow coloured blob, but an
interchange station is a hollow black blob. Limitedness is shown by
hollowness, but interchangeness is shown by hollowness *and* blackness, so
there's no way to show interchangeness and limitedness. Thus, they have to
choose which to use, and you're right, they haven't been consistent about
it.

Really, they need a visual code in which these properties are shown by
orthogonal, composable features: if interchangeness was just blackness,
that would work. It would look horrible, though.

Also, they show normal stations on tube and rail lines differently, which
is bad.

tom

--
It's the 21st century, man - we rue _minutes_. -- Benjamin Rosenbaum

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 5 Jun 2005, Matthew Dickinson wrote:

There's a new London Connections map out with Heathrow Connect depicted as
a seperate service between Ealing Broadway & Heathrow Terminals 1,2 & 3.

Is this in stations? Do you know if it's online anywhere?

I'm not sure if we're talking about the TfL London Connections map
(which is being superseded by the High Frequency Services map), or the
ATOC London Connections map, which is the one that shows each TOC in a
different colour. I think it's the latter which has been updated,
because it's the only one that showed the stations at Shepherd's Bush
and Imperial Wharf WLL.

Aha! Yes, of course.

tom

--
It's the 21st century, man - we rue _minutes_. -- Benjamin Rosenbaum

In uk.railway Mizter T wrote:
St Pancras was only shown as having Thameslink services during the
blockade. |I've just checked and the pre-blockade London Connections
map (June 2004) shows St Pancras in the same manner as this new (May
2005) map, i.e. without any services running from it.

Though the map now shows services to Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield etc as
extensions of Thameslink from West Hampstead.

Theo

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Mizter T wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 5 Jun 2005, Matthew Dickinson wrote:

London Connections map

Is this in stations? Do you know if it's online anywhere?

TfL's online support for this map is rather spotty - the version in
stations (prior to this) is the 'high frequency services' one, but i can't
find this online; it was definitely available at one point, but all TfL's
links go to the previous versions. Grr. Okay, rant over!

There was/is a TfL version of the London Connections map, which is now
called the 'High Frequency Services' map when it appears at Tube
stations, or is simply entitled 'Travelcard Zones' when it appears in
leaflets. I think they've ditched the 'London Connections' name (though
the PDF file of the 'Travelcard Zones' map available from the TfL
website is called "lon_con.pdf").

And moreover, it's still the old map:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/pdfdocs/lon_con.pdf

I am absolutely positive that at some point, the new map was online. Maybe
i'm losing my mind.

tom

--
It's the 21st century, man - we rue _minutes_. -- Benjamin Rosenbaum

"Mizter T" wrote

Fair point. 1TPH, whilst a bit sparse, still counts as a 'full' station
rather than a 'limited service' station. 'Limited service' stations
seem to be those only serverd by peak trains.

The only 1tph stations I can think of in Greater London are Sudbury Hill
Harrow, Chelsfield, Knockholt, and Belmont (IIRC Banstead and Epsom Downs
are outside Greater London). The only peak hours only stations, IIRC, are
Sudbury and Harrow Road, the Natiuonal Rail platforms at Barbican and
Moorgate (Thameslink), and Shoreditch (LUL). Is anyone aware of any I have
omitted?

Peter

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Mizter T wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 5 Jun 2005, Matthew Dickinson wrote:

London Connections map

Is this in stations? Do you know if it's online anywhere?

TfL's online support for this map is rather spotty - the version in
stations (prior to this) is the 'high frequency services' one, but i can't
find this online; it was definitely available at one point, but all TfL's
links go to the previous versions. Grr. Okay, rant over!

There was/is a TfL version of the London Connections map, which is now
called the 'High Frequency Services' map when it appears at Tube
stations, or is simply entitled 'Travelcard Zones' when it appears in
leaflets. I think they've ditched the 'London Connections' name (though
the PDF file of the 'Travelcard Zones' map available from the TfL
website is called "lon_con.pdf").

And moreover, it's still the old map:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/pdfdocs/lon_con.pdf

I am absolutely positive that at some point, the new map was online. Maybe
i'm losing my mind.

tom

The TfL map available online seems to call itself 'Travelcard Zones',
and is the same one which you'll find in the back of the TfL Fares
brochure. In all but name it is the same map that TfL used to call
'London Connections'.

I can't remember if I've ever seen the TfL 'High Frequency Services'
map online, though TfL have recently rejigged their website so perhaps
your mind is not yet lost.

Another useful map for deciphering Sarf London's labyrinth of railways
is that provided by the 'Overground Network' (a TfL / SRA / TOC scheme
to promote rail south of the river). It shows all stations and lines
that provide a Metro-style service of 4 or more trains per hour.

http://www.overgroundnetwork.com/pdf...etwork-map.pdf