Richard J. wrote in
:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Richard J." typed


Likewise, cyclists whose machines do not trigger sensors are not
obliged to die of exposure for that reason.

Cyclists can always dismount and walk across the junction.

It is still an offence to pass the stop line whilst wheeling a
bicycle though.

Really? I thought if you wheeled a bicycle you became a pedestrian,
as with a shopping trolley.

Anyway, if you wheel your bicycle past the stop line on the pavement,
surely you count as a pedestrian then?

It's certainly not an offence to wheel a bike the wrong way down a one-way
street: there's a cycle route in the centre of the town where I live which
signposts cyclists to do this - with big "Cyclists must dismount" signs.

Having said this, the National Trust have prohibited cyclists from wheeling
or even carrying (not riding) their bikes along a footpath through the
grounds of Quarry Bank Mill in Cheshire, and Oxford University bans bicycles
(even if wheeled or carried) from University Park and Christ Church Meadow,
so it looks as if a person pushing a bike doesn't *totally* become a
pedestrian!

"Richard J." typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Richard J." typed


Likewise, cyclists whose machines do not trigger sensors are not
obliged to die of exposure for that reason.

Cyclists can always dismount and walk across the junction.

It is still an offence to pass the stop line whilst wheeling a
bicycle though.

Really? I thought if you wheeled a bicycle you became a pedestrian, as
with a shopping trolley.

Anyway, if you wheel your bicycle past the stop line on the pavement,
surely you count as a pedestrian then?

Not AIUI. If you CROSS the road, you are a pedestrian, if you move with
the traffic flow, either on the footway or the carriageway, you should
not pass the stop line.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...

It's certainly not an offence to wheel a bike the wrong way down a one-way
street:

What about pushing a car?

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote in
:

"Richard J." typed
Anyway, if you wheel your bicycle past the stop line on the pavement,
surely you count as a pedestrian then?

Not AIUI. If you CROSS the road, you are a pedestrian, if you move
with the traffic flow, either on the footway or the carriageway, you
should not pass the stop line.

Even though the stop line only extends across the road and not the pavement
alongside it?

So if you're wheeling a bike along the pavement and you come to a red
traffic light (eg pedestrian lights) you must stop there while all the
pedestrians who are on the same pavement can keep going?

Strange that this should be prohibited when AIUI cyclists can't be
prosecuted (or have their car licence endorsed) if they exceed a speed limit
on the road - they can only be prosecuted for "riding furiously" or some
such woolly phrase.

I sometimes wonder how some of our laws passed the "does this make sense"
and "why do we want to prohibit/permit this" tests!

In message , Ian
writes

How often have you seen a cyclist dismount before using the pavement? They
normally ride along the pavement and expect pedestrians to jump out of the
way, even though it has been offence for 180 years to ride on the pavement.
The police no longer enforce the no cycling on the pavement law as can be
clearly seen in dft_foi_037604.pdf. In 1984 there were 1991 successful
prosecution for cycling on the pavement. By 2003 there were only 82.

Perhaps that's because the police now issue on-the-spot penalty notices
rather than prosecuting. This has happened to more than one person I
know in recent months.

--
Paul Terry

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Richard J." typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Richard J." typed


Likewise, cyclists whose machines do not trigger sensors are not
obliged to die of exposure for that reason.

Cyclists can always dismount and walk across the junction.

It is still an offence to pass the stop line whilst wheeling a
bicycle though.

Really? I thought if you wheeled a bicycle you became a
pedestrian, as with a shopping trolley.

Anyway, if you wheel your bicycle past the stop line on the
pavement, surely you count as a pedestrian then?

Not AIUI. If you CROSS the road, you are a pedestrian, if you move
with the traffic flow, either on the footway or the carriageway,
you should not pass the stop line.

I can't believe the law is that much of an ass. Do you have a
reference?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Martin Underwood wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote in
:


"Richard J." typed

Anyway, if you wheel your bicycle past the stop line on the pavement,
surely you count as a pedestrian then?


(Carrying my bike over a stop line on the carriageway, remounting
immediately after, and cycling across the T junction is quicker).

Not AIUI. If you CROSS the road, you are a pedestrian, if you move
with the traffic flow, either on the footway or the carriageway, you
should not pass the stop line.


Even though the stop line only extends across the road and not the pavement
alongside it?

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#36
'vehicular traffic shall not proceed beyond the stop line'

It irrelevent whether crossing traffic is pedestrian or not.
The stop line usually goes across only the left hand side of the
carriageway, but nobody imagines that using the right hand side of the
road gets you past a red light legally. Cyclists can cycle past a stop
line if there is a marked cycle lane which is not covered by it.

'Vehicular traffic' is not explained, but I would guess that a wheeled
cycle is counted as a pedestrian controlled vehicle, so is vehiclar
traffic, as is a shopping trolley. Pedestrians carrying luggage should
be OK, even if The Luggage has wheels.

The offence (if any) would come under RTA section 36,
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988...n_2.htm#mdiv36
which refers to the person 'driving or propelling a vehicle', no mention
of riding, so again it looks like a shopping trolley being pushed along
the footway need to stop at red lights (or be carried over the line).

Strange that this should be prohibited when AIUI cyclists can't be
prosecuted (or have their car licence endorsed) if they exceed a speed limit
on the road -

Speed limits, are specified as only applying to motor vehicles
(except some Royal Parks).

Nick Finnigan wrote in
:

Martin Underwood wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote in
:


"Richard J." typed

Anyway, if you wheel your bicycle past the stop line on the
pavement, surely you count as a pedestrian then?


(Carrying my bike over a stop line on the carriageway, remounting
immediately after, and cycling across the T junction is quicker).

Not AIUI. If you CROSS the road, you are a pedestrian, if you move
with the traffic flow, either on the footway or the carriageway, you
should not pass the stop line.


Even though the stop line only extends across the road and not the
pavement alongside it?

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#36
'vehicular traffic shall not proceed beyond the stop line'

It irrelevent whether crossing traffic is pedestrian or not.
The stop line usually goes across only the left hand side of the
carriageway, but nobody imagines that using the right hand side of the
road gets you past a red light legally. Cyclists can cycle past a stop
line if there is a marked cycle lane which is not covered by it.

Ah, so the absence of a stop line on a cycle lane in the road means it's OK
to go ahead, but the absence of a stop line on a pavement that is separated
from the road by a kerb still means you have to stop? Perverse.


'Vehicular traffic' is not explained, but I would guess that a
wheeled cycle is counted as a pedestrian controlled vehicle, so is
vehiclar traffic, as is a shopping trolley. Pedestrians carrying
luggage should be OK, even if The Luggage has wheels.

This just get better and better! I've visions of little old ladies (and
men - must be PC these days!) with their shopping trolleys stopped on the
pavement at the imaginery stop line at traffic lights, waiting until the
lights turn green and they can set off again. ;-)

I'm not sure whether a shopping trolley could be classed as a vehicle, on
the grounds that it's not usually used for carrying people on/in it - unless
you count the obligatory pekinese that the LOL/LOM always seems to carry in
their trolley!


The offence (if any) would come under RTA section 36,
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988...n_2.htm#mdiv36
which refers to the person 'driving or propelling a vehicle', no
mention of riding, so again it looks like a shopping trolley being
pushed along the footway need to stop at red lights (or be carried
over the line).
Strange that this should be prohibited when AIUI cyclists can't be
prosecuted (or have their car licence endorsed) if they exceed a
speed limit on the road -

Speed limits are specified as only applying to motor vehicles
(except some Royal Parks).

Exactly. I *know* that speed limits only apply to motor vehicles and not to
bicycles (and skateboards and roller skates etc etc). My question was "why"?
You'd think that speed limit and drink-driving laws, and the requirement for
3rd-party insurance, would apply equally to *all* vehicles (motor or
otherwise).

In my book, the law should be a servant not a master: society should decide
which acts it wants to permit and which it doesn't, and then frame its laws
accordingly. Making perverse laws and then expecting people blindly and
unthinkingly to keep them in all circumstances without applying common sense
is to put the cart before the horse. If a law cannot be justified, it should
be repealed. I'd love to see the so-called justification for making people
who are pushing bikes or shopping trolleys stop at traffic lights when they
are on the pavement!

Now if they want to extend the highway code to apply the same
rules-of-the-road on pavements for pedestrians as on roads for vehicles,
then I'm all in favour of that: people emerging from shops ("side roads")
should wait for people on the pavement to go past instead of barging in
front of them; people should walk on the left-hand side of the pavement
(rather than walking in a line abreast, forcing oncoming people to step into
the road). I'm only being half-humourous he walking along the average
high street requires more "emergency stops" in half an hour than you'd
require in a lifetime of driving.

When I was at the Tram Museum at Crich (Derbyshire) the other year, I
noticed that there were serious proposals in the early 1900s to bring in
laws requiring people to walk on the left hand side of any pavement so the
people closer to the kerb would always be facing the oncoming traffic -
especially electric trams which were so much quieter than noisy motor cars.
Shame that one never made it onto the statue book ;-)

Martin Underwood wrote:
Nick Finnigan wrote in
:


The stop line usually goes across only the left hand side of the
carriageway, but nobody imagines that using the right hand side of the
road gets you past a red light legally. Cyclists can cycle past a stop
line if there is a marked cycle lane which is not covered by it.

Ah, so the absence of a stop line on a cycle lane in the road means it's OK
to go ahead, but the absence of a stop line on a pavement that is separated
from the road by a kerb still means you have to stop? Perverse.

Yep.

I'm not sure whether a shopping trolley could be classed as a vehicle, on
the grounds that it's not usually used for carrying people on/in it - unless
you count the obligatory pekinese that the LOL/LOM always seems to carry in
their trolley!

It would be a goods vehicle (even with pekinese dogs in it).

You'd think that speed limit and drink-driving laws, and the requirement for
3rd-party insurance, would apply equally to *all* vehicles (motor or
otherwise).

Only to those vehicles it is illegal for children under 10 to drive.

In my book, the law should be a servant not a master: society should decide
which acts it wants to permit and which it doesn't, and then frame its laws
accordingly. Making perverse laws and then expecting people blindly and
unthinkingly to keep them in all circumstances without applying common sense
is to put the cart before the horse. If a law cannot be justified, it should
be repealed. I'd love to see the so-called justification for making people
who are pushing bikes or shopping trolleys stop at traffic lights when they
are on the pavement!

Because they may be a nuisance to other road users.

"Richard J." wrote in message
.uk...
...I thought if you wheeled a bicycle you became a pedestrian...

See
URL:http://www.nationalcyclingstrategy.o...oad/showthread
..php?t=229&goto=nextoldest

--
MatSav