On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:51:47 +0000, Phil Richards
wrote:

Approx 10:00 this morning was greeted by LUL staff at the top of the exits
to announce the Victoria Line was suspended between Walthamstow Central and
Highbury & Islington due to a person under a train.

Contingency plan to walk to the WAGN station was only to be met with staff
who announced their station was also closed "at the request of the BTP"
despite the incident being on the Victoria Line and WAGN trains were
running through non stop. Any ideas why the BTP opted to close that too?

A guess but it is virtually impossible to stop people alighting from the
WAGN trains to head to the Tube regardless of how many announcements are
made [1]. Given that, IIRC, the WAGN station stairs and corridors are
not what you would call spacious there may have been concerns about
serious overcrowding in a confined space as people diverting from the
tube ran into the people heading off WAGN trains to the Tube. The other
issue is that the WAGN train frequency is not very high and having to
deal with lots of people waiting for the Tube to resume as well as
people fed up with waiting for a train may have caused concern. Seven
Sisters is so busy that the local buses can overwhelmed very quickly if
the Tube ceases to run into town. As I say a complete guess and what
feels like a bit of an over reaction to me but I wasn't there so don't
know how busy the place was. I may know more tomorrow when I see the
daily report.

The only alternative is that there was a crime of some sort in the
vicinity of the WAGN station.

[1] I've seen this too many times at Walthamstow Central when the Vic
Line service has collapsed and everyone is trying to get to Liverpool
St.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

Contingency plan to walk to the WAGN station was only to be met with staff
who announced their station was also closed "at the request of the BTP"
despite the incident being on the Victoria Line and WAGN trains were
running through non stop. Any ideas why the BTP opted to close that too?

A guess but it is virtually impossible to stop people alighting from the
WAGN trains to head to the Tube regardless of how many announcements are
made [1]. Given that, IIRC, the WAGN station stairs and corridors are
not what you would call spacious there may have been concerns about
serious overcrowding in a confined space as people diverting from the
tube ran into the people heading off WAGN trains to the Tube. The other
issue is that the WAGN train frequency is not very high and having to
deal with lots of people waiting for the Tube to resume as well as
people fed up with waiting for a train may have caused concern.

Although I don't use Seven Sisters on a daily basis (Turnpike Lane is my
local station) this isn't the first time I've turned up to find the
Victoria Line closed including at least three times during the Piccadilly
Line closure back in the Summer. However I've never found the WAGN station
closed as well.

Seven Sisters is so busy that the local buses can overwhelmed very
quickly if the Tube ceases to run into town.

Absolutely and you couldn't get on a 259 or 279 towards Manor House, so a
long walk thus endured.

I may know more tomorrow when I see the daily report.

If you could let us know that'll be great.

The only alternative is that there was a crime of some sort in the
vicinity of the WAGN station.

Possible, but the Police activity seemed to be centred on the Victoria
Line. No sign of cordoning off the WAGN station entrance on Seven Sisters
Road. The exact words I got told at the WAGN station was closed was a
Police request and not overcrowding.

[1] I've seen this too many times at Walthamstow Central when the Vic
Line service has collapsed and everyone is trying to get to Liverpool
St.

One wonders how the lines into Liverpool Street ever coped pre-Victoria
line days.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Well into this incident LU passengers were being allowed to use NB
trains to reach Seven Sisters prior to the train stabling in
Northumberland Park Depot, even though the 'official' view was nothing
running north of Highbury. WAGN actually asked if LU wanted more trains
to call at their part of the station.

I wonder if the decision to close the NR platforms had at least
something to do with the fact that it was easier for local managemwent
to deal with the incident without the "inconvenience" of those pesky
passengers. Fair enough maybe when a life is at stake, but not when the
person has been pronounced dead and is safely screened from the route
from NR to street.

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:28:47 +0000, Phil Richards
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

I may know more tomorrow when I see the daily report.

If you could let us know that'll be great.

There was nothing in the report to say that the WAGN part of the station
was closed so no more info.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

A guess but it is virtually impossible to stop people alighting from the
WAGN trains to head to the Tube regardless of how many announcements are
made [1].


Probably because the announcements are often complete crap !

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard the familiar...

"Trains on such and such a line are seriously delayed we advice you
to use other routes".

Only to make my way to the platform anyway, find a half empty train
arrives within minutes, and I get to work on time.

People only take notice of announcements if they have a good track
record of accuracy.



--
Edward Cowling London UK

On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 09:08:26 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

A guess but it is virtually impossible to stop people alighting from the
WAGN trains to head to the Tube regardless of how many announcements are
made [1].


Probably because the announcements are often complete crap !

Sorry but in the example of that I am most familiar with which is
Walthamstow Central, the announcements have been very clear and people
carry on in robot mode and take no notice. I have even told people
alighting from a One West Anglia train that there's no tube and still
they get off and carry on. It is not always the fault of the station
staff or the driver. Some people will not be told and you cannot assume
that every announcement is telling you something incorrect.

If you were told there was a fire would you ignore it and carry on
towards the hazard?

A bit of balance does no one any harm.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!,,

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

Sorry but in the example of that I am most familiar with which is
Walthamstow Central, the announcements have been very clear and people
carry on in robot mode and take no notice. I have even told people
alighting from a One West Anglia train that there's no tube and still
they get off and carry on. It is not always the fault of the station
staff or the driver. Some people will not be told and you cannot assume
that every announcement is telling you something incorrect.


You mean like on the 7th July telling everyone it was an electrical
problem for at least an hour !!

Something is woefully wrong with communications on our trains. Whether
it means better radios, or a complete revamp, it needs doing.

--
Edward Cowling London UK

On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 11:41:29 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

Sorry but in the example of that I am most familiar with which is
Walthamstow Central, the announcements have been very clear and people
carry on in robot mode and take no notice. I have even told people
alighting from a One West Anglia train that there's no tube and still
they get off and carry on. It is not always the fault of the station
staff or the driver. Some people will not be told and you cannot assume
that every announcement is telling you something incorrect.


You mean like on the 7th July telling everyone it was an electrical
problem for at least an hour !!

This has been done to death. I would invite anyone with appropriate
knowledge of the railway who was presented with the events and
information as it came in to reach any other conclusion than the one
about a power problem.

You are making statements with the benefit of hindsight. You were not
present as the events unfolded within the organisation so don't make
simplistic statements.

God help us if there is a next time but I look forward to your
announcements being made on the public address system and on national TV
that completely and fully diagnoses the events given your clear and
obvious omniscience.

Something is woefully wrong with communications on our trains. Whether
it means better radios, or a complete revamp, it needs doing.

As you obviously have the answer to everything as you feel able to offer
criticism so freely then I'm sure the MD of LUL will receive your
proposal with open arms.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

God help us if there is a next time but I look forward to your
announcements being made on the public address system and on national TV
that completely and fully diagnoses the events given your clear and
obvious omniscience.

Again smart arse patronising comments about the poor old public who have
to travel on these part privatised, part god knows what transport
systems.

We're not talking about a scout jumble sale, where if the tanoy system
doesn't work we all say "good effort" and smile benevolently.

This is the transport for one of the busiest cities in the world !!

There should be not good communications, but first bloody rate
communications at all times. I'm beginning to think the RMT have a point
about striking to get safety issues looked at.... nothing else seems to
get it done.


--
Edward Cowling London UK

On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 20:00:06 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

God help us if there is a next time but I look forward to your
announcements being made on the public address system and on national TV
that completely and fully diagnoses the events given your clear and
obvious omniscience.

Again smart arse patronising comments about the poor old public who have
to travel on these part privatised, part god knows what transport
systems.

Not patronising at all. You are sitting in judgement. Therefore I assume
you know what needs to be done. What technically has to be done and what
is not being done? What are the safety issues to which you refer?

I'm interested to know given that public address systems are being
replaced or upgraded, we're getting a new integrated radio system
installed, there are the new Home Office sponsored emergency service
radio systems as well. I'm also interested to know what part of the
emergency response to the terrorist events was mishandled where
apparently our communications were so inadequate. Strange that we got
several hundred thousand people off the network without injuring anyone
during that exercise.

I notice you declined to comment on my response to the 7th July
incidents - why is that then? Am I right or do you have evidence that
refutes what I said?

You seem to be confusing equipment with the fluidity of events in the
midst of what was a national emergency. Do you seriously expect
communications to be perfect in such an environment?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!