On 3 Jan 2006 11:43:50 -0800, "
wrote:

TKD, sorry, I meant Olympia!

I don't know why pre-pay can't be used on NR between West Brompton and
Olympia. Tube paper singles are valid. I wonder what makes the NLL/WLL
"special" compared to all the other NR routes where Tube singles are
valid (where pre-pay is almost always valid too).

Richard, I am confused. If I had a Zone 1 and 2 annual Travelcard, and
converted it to Oyster,

I don't believe you can "convert" a ticket in this way...

On a different issue, supposing I had Oyster prepay to entitle me to
travel between Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters, but boarded a NR
instead of Underground train and decided to get off at an intermediate
station, what would happen?

It's at least arguable that you could legally travel from Tottenham
Hale to Liverpool Street, then take another train from there to Seven
Sisters (assuming you can do that without going through the barriers
at Liverpool St), using pre-pay. However, it's explicity not valid at
intermediate stations (between Liverpool Street and Tottenham
Hale/Seven Sisters).

What, if any, "penalty" would I have to pay upon exit?

You could expect to pay a Penalty Fare if tickets are being inspected
at the station you leave through. Also, you wouldn't be able to "touch
out" and complete the pre-pay journey, so you might also be charged a
penalty for the unresolved journey (it was mentioned in this group
some time ago that TfL intended to make this charge equivalent to the
full Z1-6 pre-pay fare, though there have been no reports of this
actually being imposed yet).

Could I really be penalised for SHORTENING my journey?

It will no doubt enrage you to learn that if you get on at Liverpool
Street but don't travel all the way to Seven Sisters/Tottenham
Hale/Walthamstow, a £5.00 penalty is automatically deduced from your
pre-pay balance.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article .com, (Richard Adamfi) wrote:

If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster,
rather than Ken/TfL.

The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because it was not Standards-compliant.

This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information from?
Oh and what standards?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:12:20 +0000, Barry Salter
wrote:

Another problem is that, as far as I'm aware, none of the PC-based
Ticket Issuing Systems can be updated to support Oyster, so TOCs would
either need to replace their systems (again) or get machines similar to
those used by TfL Ticket Stops (formerly Pass Agents).

I don't think is true at all. Any of the PC based systems are far easier
to upgrade than APTIS ever was and I saw and used the prototype
smartcard reader attached to an APTIS machine over 6 years ago! The
option of using PASS EPOS machines was looked at but was obviously
frowned upon from an accounting and audit viewpoint by Rail Settlement
Plan who are the guardians of National Rail ticketing / accounting
standards for retailing.

The TOCs and their chosen suppliers have simply opted not to spend the
money (that TfL was ready to provide) or enter into the appropriate
agreements to allow software to be written that could interface with a
generically supplied read / write Oyster target. After all the ticket
machine simply has to recognise a card is present, accept the sale
requirement, encode it to the card, receive confirmation that the
transaction is complete on the card and then complete its own
transaction. Easy stuff.

Put very simply this is organisational and business "politics" of the
absolute worst kind where the customer comes last. I know - I
experienced the icy blasts of ATOC cynicism 7 or 8 years ago. I think I
had two allies in the room - from what was LTS Rail and Virgin Trains.
These company reps no longer work for either organisation but were both
people who could see the opportunities the technology would provide and
how it linked to other things that were happening in the wider IT,
Internet and retail markets.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 3 Jan 2006 16:01:05 -0800, " wrote:

Paul Corfield,

Many thanks for the explanation.

Not a problem although even I am beginning to lose the will to live and
I have a staff pass. The level of public confusion is not acceptable.

As a lawyer, used to some pretty complicated concepts, I still find the
whole Oyster thing mind-boggling, and the more I learn about it (to say
nothing of having to explain to some jobsworth where I got on and where
I am going to, should the reader have failed to register my Oyster, and
the traceability of my journey, which is nobody's business but mine)
the less I want to have to do with it. I'll still be buying One Day
Travelcards at my corner shop for the foreseeable future. Much simpler
all round - and simple proof of payment for the taxman.

When the concept is boiled down to its basic elements and some examples
of how things like validities and capping work are provided it is not
that hard. I do think people need to be able to work it through for
themselves in order to have confidence in the underlying systems and
processes. I don't really see how that is being achieved or will be
achieved. It is, however, necessary.

You're obviously entitled to your view about privacy but I have no real
issue about that information being captured by TfL. Perhaps that's
because I know how the system was designed and partly because I work for
TfL and can't see how they can use the information in some malign way.

I think Oyster is a good product and that Londoners will accept it once
the current obstacles to its effective use are removed. It just needs
more work and a better response from the staff who administer it.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

I think Oyster is a good product and that Londoners will accept it once
the current obstacles to its effective use are removed.

I agree, but the fact remains that the majority of London commuters use
surface rail rather than exclusively TfL services, and many are people
(like me) who work mainly from home and need to commute only once or
twice a week or less.

Until Oyster is properly accepted for all surface rail journeys in the
capital, it will for many of us remain an interesting but irrelevant
exercise.

--
Paul Terry

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:11:26 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article .com, (Richard Adamfi) wrote:

If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster,
rather than Ken/TfL.

The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because it was not Standards-compliant.

This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information from?

The standards problem has been in the railway press - probably in
Modern Railways and elsewhere.

Oh and what standards?

Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation ones:
http://www.itso.org.uk

If the TOCs were to go ahead and fit Oyster, there could be a problem
if and when ITSO-compliant cards are in widespread use everywhere
else. People arriving in London would discover that the card they use
to buy transport tickets, in libraries or for school dinners (etc)
couldn't be used in London, and Londoners would find they couldn't use
their Oyster cards on National Rail ITSO systems outside London.

Fitting duplicate systems at every station would be wasteful, but
Oyster won't be used beyond London, and so the railways are meant to
use inter-operable ITSO cards which would work with everyone else's
systems.

Is Oyster technology proprietory, or can anyone get the specs and make
their own kit if they want?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

"Arthur Figgis" ] wrote in message
...
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:11:26 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article .com,
(Richard Adamfi) wrote:

If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster,
rather than Ken/TfL.

The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because it was
not Standards-compliant.

This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information from?

The standards problem has been in the railway press - probably in
Modern Railways and elsewhere.


Also mentioned by the mayor here
http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/question.do?id=12553. I can see where the
TOC's are coming from on this issue, it seems Livingston is insisting they
pay for the 'retailing and validation capability' of oyster installation in
stations when the dft is developing (presumably still a work in progress) a
separate system for the rest of the UK, which they will be installing a few
years later.

And then here http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/question.do?id=13087
Livingston lays down the costs. TfL is hardly short of cash, if £60m is all
it would take for implementation why can't he just get on with it?. He's not
exactly known for being prudent and to argue over a relatively small project
(cost wise) with such large potential benefits seems incredibly petty.

wrote:
TKD,

Sorry, I thought you can put 1-day Travelcards on prepay. This is what
the TFL website says:-

"During any 24-hour period from 0430 to 0430 the following day, you
will never pay more than 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard
price for all your Oyster single journeys in Zones 1-6 or we will
refund the difference. "

I read this as meaning that if I make dozens of journeys within, say
Zones 1 and 2 in 1 day, then my Oystercard would be charged the
equivalent of a 1-day Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2, less 50 pence. Is
that not the same, in all but name, as buying a 1-day Travelcard on
Prepay?

From what I've read on u.t.l befo the oyster readers at most railway
stations can only read (ie check there is a season ticket on) oyster
cards.

On the tube, buses, DLR, tramlink, etc. they can read and write so they
can deduct money from prepay.

Capping works by working out how much to deduct based on previous
journeys that day (this could be £0.00p if a cap is reached)

The "man on the clapham omnibus" does not need to know the
technicalities of oyster so probably wouldn't understand - or desire -
a system which said:
"Once you have spent £X on the tube, bus, etc. in a single day you can
now use national rail services within zones x,y with the same
oystercard, however, you can't use the train services followed by the
tube then bus"

Hence they don't do it

Plus it would mean making national rail fares zonal which is *bad*
because NR is substantialy cheaper than LU zonal fares on (at least)
the Hounslow loop and probably other chunks of the rail network that I
don't use.

Hope this explains something

--
Chris

In article , (Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article .com,
(Richard Adamfi) wrote:

If you think it is a con, blame the TOCs for not accepting Oyster,
rather than Ken/TfL.

The TOCs were forced by the Government not to adopt Oyster because
it was not Standards-compliant.

This is news to me - where did you get this snippet of information
from?
Oh and what standards?

Read Uncle Roger (Ford) in Modern Railways, repeatedly, and learn.

Oyster is not ITSO-compliant and the DfT, who pay the TOC bills, won't
pay for non-ITSO-compliant kit. Figures.

Luckily, moves to make Oyster ITSO-compliant seem to be progressing at
last.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , ] (Arthur Figgis) wrote:

Is Oyster technology proprietory, or can anyone get the specs and make
their own kit if they want?

I believe Transys own it. The government's problem with Oyster is the
risk of supplier lock-in.

--
Colin Rosenstiel