I took the Silverlink from Canning Town, my local station, last Saturday to
go to Camden Market, when I saw a poster saying that unless anyone objects,
the Silverlink will only go from Richmond to Stratford in future, as from
November 2006.

The period of objection was some time last year. But I can't remember
seeing that poster before, I certainly did not see any posters at all in
the main concourse about it, or people handing out leaflets or asking
opinions, and I used that station every day. I didn't see anything in the
Newham Recorder either, which I buy and digest every Wednesday.

So how did this creep in? And were there any objections that may have
stalled this idea?

Now I know that they are saying that the Silverlink south of Stratford will
be redundant because of the DLR extension which will go via Star Lane,
Abbey Road, Stratford High Street and Stratford International, but (a) this
has not been approved yet by the Transport & Works Act, and (b) it won't
happen until 2010 at the earliest. So between November 2006 and a date
possibly in 2010, this part of London will be shafted.

I think it's ludicrous to dissolve such a busy and useful service (and
quite punctual too) such as the Stratford to Woolwich service on the
Silverlink. Oh, that's another thing - Woolwich don't get their DLR
extension until 2009 - they're going to be REALLY marginalised. Property
values there will plummet.

I think it's short-sighted of them to get rid of a service before a
suitable alternative is in place. And as for these Stratford High Street /
Stratford International stations, will it be relatively easy to jump onto
the Silverlink from these stations? Probably not.

So someone going from Woolwich to Camden really will have to find another
way of getting there in future, even when the DLR extension finally arrives
there in 2009, as taking the DLR to Stratford and then hopping onto the
Silverlink to Camden Road is not going to be that quick of a "hop" - and
probably will involve going through the shopping centre, or a long walk. So
the Woolwich person after 2009 will I guess take the DLR to Canning Town,
change to the Jubilee to Stratford, and change to the Silverlink to Camden
Road. Whereas s/he used to be able to go straight through. And they call
that progress?

Tristán White wrote:
The period of objection was some time last year. But I can't remember
seeing that poster before, I certainly did not see any posters at all in
the main concourse about it, or people handing out leaflets or asking
opinions, and I used that station every day. I didn't see anything in the
Newham Recorder either, which I buy and digest every Wednesday.

The posters have been up for some time, though I can't say when they
actually went up.


Oh, that's another thing - Woolwich don't get their DLR
extension until 2009 - they're going to be REALLY marginalised. Property
values there will plummet.

Don't confuse Woolwich with North Woolwich. The former has South
Eastern services into Lewisham and London Bridge. These are not
affected. The DLR will also run to Woolwich in the future.

The North Woolwich branch will close if the appropriate person in power
agrees. There is already a DLR service to North Woolwich, it's just
that the station is called King George V.

PhilD

--

Tristán White wrote:
I took the Silverlink from Canning Town, my local station, last Saturday to
go to Camden Market, when I saw a poster saying that unless anyone objects,
the Silverlink will only go from Richmond to Stratford in future, as from
November 2006.

The period of objection was some time last year. But I can't remember
seeing that poster before, I certainly did not see any posters at all in
the main concourse about it, or people handing out leaflets or asking
opinions, and I used that station every day. I didn't see anything in the
Newham Recorder either, which I buy and digest every Wednesday.

There are posters advertising the T&WA notices and reports of closure
on the Silverlink platforms at Richmond station. I haven't seen them at
any other NLL stations yet.


So how did this creep in? And were there any objections that may have
stalled this idea?

It didn't "creep" in, it's been under active discussion for a long
time. The NLL service from Stratford to North Woolwich is a
low-frequency duplication of the high-frequency Jubilee Line between
Stratford and Canning Town and of the high-frequency intermediate-mode
DLR between Canning Town and Custom House/King George V. Transferring
the route to the DLR will not only remove this duplication, but also
provide a step-change in the regeneration of the London Borough of
Newnham along the Jubilee corridor.

Plans for the DLR takeover include several new stations, some of which
you have already mentioned, between Canning Town and Stratford, thus
enhancing the corridor's capacity and preventing it from remaining a
duplicate of the Jubilee Line. Once at Stratford (Regional) the new DLR
route will continue to Stratford International, providing a major link
between the two stations. Additionally, the new route will also be
served by trains from the Beckton and Woolwich branches, providing a
massive increase in capacity on both lines and creating additional
capacity on the DLR network, this easing the pressure at the Poplar
junctions.


Now I know that they are saying that the Silverlink south of Stratford will
be redundant because of the DLR extension which will go via Star Lane,
Abbey Road, Stratford High Street and Stratford International, but (a) this
has not been approved yet by the Transport & Works Act, and (b) it won't
happen until 2010 at the earliest. So between November 2006 and a date
possibly in 2010, this part of London will be shafted.

Nope, see above - the King George V route has already replaced the
remainder of the NLL route south of Canning Town, part of which was
already replaced by the Beckton branch. The Jubilee Line takes care of
the rest.


I think it's ludicrous to dissolve such a busy and useful service (and
quite punctual too) such as the Stratford to Woolwich service on the
Silverlink. Oh, that's another thing - Woolwich don't get their DLR
extension until 2009 - they're going to be REALLY marginalised. Property
values there will plummet.

"Busy"? Not anymore. And you seem to be confusing Woolwich with North
Woolwich. Woolwich is on the south side of the Thames, is served by
South Eastern Trains, and will get a DLR terminus accessed by the King
George V route in 2009. North Woolwich is north of the river, contains
the soon-to-be former terminus of the NLL route, and has been replaced
by King George V DLR station. The whole reason why Woolwich's DLR
extension will take 3 more years is the need to go under the river.

Both areas have probably already seen property rises, especially north
of the river - the DLR seems to trigger massive reconstruction and
upgrading of any place it goes near.


I think it's short-sighted of them to get rid of a service before a
suitable alternative is in place. And as for these Stratford High Street /
Stratford International stations, will it be relatively easy to jump onto
the Silverlink from these stations? Probably not.

International station doesn't need Silverlink, it has the Javelin and
the DLR. Stratford High Street will be a DLR station. Silverlink
passengers will need to take the first DLR train to Stratford Regional
and head for platforms 10, 11 and 12 for NLL services to Richmond.


So someone going from Woolwich to Camden really will have to find another
way of getting there in future, even when the DLR extension finally arrives
there in 2009, as taking the DLR to Stratford and then hopping onto the
Silverlink to Camden Road is not going to be that quick of a "hop" - and
probably will involve going through the shopping centre, or a long walk. So
the Woolwich person after 2009 will I guess take the DLR to Canning Town,
change to the Jubilee to Stratford, and change to the Silverlink to Camden
Road. Whereas s/he used to be able to go straight through. And they call
that progress?

Anyone going from Woolwich to Camden will take SET to one of the south
London termini and head for the Northern Line. Anyone in North Woolwich
who wants to go to Camden will probably take the DLR to Canning Town,
switch to a westbound Jubilee train to London Bridge and then get the
Northern Line; they may alternately choose to use the NLL if Camden
Road station is more convenient for them.

The removal of Stratford-North Woolwich NLL services is not the end of
the world for this part of London; it's an opportunity to improve
public transport in the area.

In message . 145,
Tristán White writes

I took the Silverlink from Canning Town, my local station, last Saturday to
go to Camden Market, when I saw a poster saying that unless anyone objects,
the Silverlink will only go from Richmond to Stratford in future, as from
November 2006.

The period of objection was some time last year. But I can't remember
seeing that poster before, I certainly did not see any posters at all in
the main concourse about it, or people handing out leaflets or asking
opinions, and I used that station every day. I didn't see anything in the
Newham Recorder either, which I buy and digest every Wednesday.

The appearance of closure notices was reported here last October by John
Rowland:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....2aaea79d752c9?

And as for these Stratford High Street / Stratford International
stations, will it be relatively easy to jump onto the Silverlink from
these stations? Probably not.

That's why the DLR extension will also stop at the existing Stratford
station.

--
Paul Terry

"Tristán White" wrote in message
. 109.145...

The period of objection was some time last year. But I can't remember
seeing that poster before, I certainly did not see any posters at all in
the main concourse about it, or people handing out leaflets or asking
opinions, and I used that station every day. I didn't see anything in the
Newham Recorder either, which I buy and digest every Wednesday.

The documents were available at your local planning office on Alpha
Centauri.

Now I know that they are saying that the Silverlink south of Stratford
will
be redundant because of the DLR extension which will go via Star Lane,
Abbey Road, Stratford High Street and Stratford International,

It will call at Stratford's existing station as well.

but (a) this has not been approved yet by the Transport
& Works Act, and (b) it won't happen until 2010 at the
earliest. So between November 2006 and a date
possibly in 2010, this part of London will be shafted.

Hardly, since the DLR currently offers a train every few minutes from North
Woolwhich to Canning Town, and the Jubbly offers a train every few minutes
from Canning Town to Stratford. Most parts of London can but dream of being
so shafted.

I think it's ludicrous to dissolve such a busy and useful service (and
quite punctual too) such as the Stratford to Woolwich service on the
Silverlink.

Busy between Stratford and Woolwich? Never, not even before the DLR branch
opened, and now the station staff would show up for work wearing pyjamas, if
there were any station staff.

Tristán White wrote:
(snip)
Now I know that they are saying that the Silverlink south of Stratford will
be redundant because of the DLR extension which will go via Star Lane,
Abbey Road, Stratford High Street and Stratford International, but (a) this
has not been approved yet by the Transport & Works Act, and (b) it won't
happen until 2010 at the earliest. So between November 2006 and a date
possibly in 2010, this part of London will be shafted.

Since the DLR extension will be taking over the North London Line
alignment, it's necessary to close this section so that construction of
the DLR can begin.

In the interim, a single change at Stratford will be required for
passengers from Canning Town and West Ham, and passengers from Custom
House, Silvertown and North Woolwich will need to change twice (by
taking the DLR from the nearest equivalent station to Canning Town, and
then Jubilee to Stratford).

It's inconvenient but the result will be a superior frequency, with
trains at least six trains per hour from Custom House, London City
Airport (instead of Silvertown) or King George V (instead of North
Woolwich) to Stratford.

I think it's ludicrous to dissolve such a busy and useful service (and
quite punctual too) such as the Stratford to Woolwich service on the
Silverlink. Oh, that's another thing - Woolwich don't get their DLR
extension until 2009 - they're going to be REALLY marginalised. Property
values there will plummet.

Woolwich (Arsenal), south of the river, is not connected to the North
London Line, so they are not losing out in the meantime at all (and will
get an excellent service from 2009). North Woolwich, north of the river,
already has the DLR service to King George V which is much more frequent
than the North London Line service.

There will be some short-term inconvenience, but once the full Woolwich
Arsenal - Stratford International route opens, it will serve the local
area much better than the line it replaces. Property values should
increase significantly.

I think it's short-sighted of them to get rid of a service before a
suitable alternative is in place. And as for these Stratford High Street /
Stratford International stations, will it be relatively easy to jump onto
the Silverlink from these stations? Probably not.

The DLR will *also* call at the existing Stratford station for
interchange with the North London Line and all the other services
available there. The calling pattern from Canning Town will be Star
Lane, West Ham, Abbey Road, Stratford High Street, Stratford, Stratford
International.

So someone going from Woolwich to Camden really will have to find another
way of getting there in future, even when the DLR extension finally arrives
there in 2009, as taking the DLR to Stratford and then hopping onto the
Silverlink to Camden Road is not going to be that quick of a "hop" - and
probably will involve going through the shopping centre, or a long walk.

Not really true - travellers from North Woolwich to Camden will be able
to take a DLR from King George V to Stratford (departing every ten
minutes initially, every five minutes in the future) where they can
change directly onto the North London Line to Camden.

They will also have the option, if they choose, of travelling directly
to Bank and changing to the Northern Line (although I know this takes
them through Zone 1).

Passengers from Woolwich itself, south of the river, will have the new
option of a quick and frequent DLR link to Stratford for the NLL,
compared to the existing foot tunnel or ferry and then a half-hourly
service from North Woolwich.

So
the Woolwich person after 2009 will I guess take the DLR to Canning Town,
change to the Jubilee to Stratford, and change to the Silverlink to Camden
Road. Whereas s/he used to be able to go straight through. And they call
that progress?

Well, if we're talking about North Woolwich, then they will have a DLR
direct to Stratford every 10 minutes followed by a Silverlink every 15
minutes, compared to a direct Silverlink every 30 minutes.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

I'm writing this in response to all of you who replied - thanks.

It doesn't sound as bad as I feared (although I'll miss seeing the
actual trains roll into Canning Town every morning - can't be helped I
guess).

A couple of points though - some of you say it was well advertised etc
on groups such as these, or by going to my local planning office, but my
point is that as a commuter, I knew nothing about it until last weekend
(I'm no longer a regular on UTL - I am trying to ween myself off
newsgroups these days - it was becoming too addictive and I was getting
****ed off by trolls....)

I bet if you did a vox pop of commuters in Canning Town the vast
majority wouldn't have a clue. I didn't know, and I use Canning Town
every year and actually have more than a passing interest in trains and
in the London transport system.

So not sure whether this public consultation was really very well
PUBLICised (even though in the end it looks as though it's a good thing
after all, but I still would have liked to have been aware of it during
the consultation period without having to read the specialised
newsgroups!)

Actually - just to clear something up - you (Dave) wrote

and passengers from Custom
House, Silvertown and North Woolwich will need to change twice (by
taking the DLR from the nearest equivalent station to Canning Town,
and then Jubilee to Stratford).

but then

Well, if we're talking about North Woolwich, then they will have a DLR
direct to Stratford every 10 minutes followed by a Silverlink every 15
minutes, compared to a direct Silverlink every 30 minutes.

but if what you are saying in the earlier paragraph is true, then in
fact North Woolwich won't have a direct connection to Stratford as they
do now (albeit one every 30 minutes, but if you time it right you're
OK), they will surely have to change in Canning Town for either the
other branch of the the DLR via Star Lane, Abbey Road, etc., or they
will have to take the Jubilee to Stratford. It's still two changes to go
to Camden Road, Hackney Wick or wherever, as opposed to zero changes at
the moment. I'm not convinced that even with a more frequent service, a
passenger will get to Camden Road or Hackney Wick from George V faster
than they currently would from North Woolwich and a copy of the
Silverlink timetable in their pocket..... More line changes means more
possibilities of things going wrong, connections being missed, or
problems on the various lines.

I guess my main disappointment is probably that I will miss seeing the
old *******s rolling into Canning Town station, and being replaced by
those more soulless blue DLRs... no one likes history, especially
something dating back from the 1870s....

Incidentally, anyone know why the NLL is the only railway to
consistently, since the 1970s, to appear on every tube map
(notwithstanding the occasional appearence of the WAGN and sometimes the
Thameslink on more detailed tube maps?)

I know that this was because of a campaign of some sort, but don't know
why other similar lines were not granted such consistent inclusion on
the tube map.

Anyway, thanks again -

TRISTÁN

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:53:11 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

I'm writing this in response to all of you who replied - thanks.

It doesn't sound as bad as I feared (although I'll miss seeing the
actual trains roll into Canning Town every morning - can't be helped I
guess).

A couple of points though - some of you say it was well advertised etc
on groups such as these, or by going to my local planning office, but my
point is that as a commuter, I knew nothing about it until last weekend
(I'm no longer a regular on UTL - I am trying to ween myself off
newsgroups these days - it was becoming too addictive and I was getting
****ed off by trolls....)

I saw a poster about all of this at Blackhorse Road station on the
GOBLIN platform to Gospel Oak. I've also seen one at Stratford.

I bet if you did a vox pop of commuters in Canning Town the vast
majority wouldn't have a clue. I didn't know, and I use Canning Town
every year and actually have more than a passing interest in trains and
in the London transport system.

Maybe not but it does not mean that the statutory process has not been
followed. Many people have no awareness of what is happening to the
transport network until a change is implemented. This would still be the
case if they had been notified individually as people discount much of
what may be posted through their letter box.

Well, if we're talking about North Woolwich, then they will have a DLR
direct to Stratford every 10 minutes followed by a Silverlink every 15
minutes, compared to a direct Silverlink every 30 minutes.

Yes which is a huge improvement in my books.

but if what you are saying in the earlier paragraph is true, then in
fact North Woolwich won't have a direct connection to Stratford as they
do now (albeit one every 30 minutes, but if you time it right you're
OK), they will surely have to change in Canning Town for either the
other branch of the the DLR via Star Lane, Abbey Road, etc., or they
will have to take the Jubilee to Stratford. It's still two changes to go
to Camden Road, Hackney Wick or wherever, as opposed to zero changes at
the moment. I'm not convinced that even with a more frequent service, a
passenger will get to Camden Road or Hackney Wick from George V faster
than they currently would from North Woolwich and a copy of the
Silverlink timetable in their pocket..... More line changes means more
possibilities of things going wrong, connections being missed, or
problems on the various lines.

There will be no station at North Woolwich - it disappears. It has
already been replaced by a station at King George V which is minutes
away. There will be direct trains to Stratford via DLR every 10 mins.
You could also take the other 10 minute frequency DLR service (for Bank)
and change to JLE at Canning Town if you wished to. To be honest I
wouldn't bother as DLR is very reliable with good information on how
trains are running.

The proposed service pattern is shown here

http://developments.dlr.co.uk/pdf/ex...%20Changes.pdf

In my book a 10 minute service with one change to a service that is
almost as frequent is no real hardship. It should be remembered that TfL
intend to increase the NLL service to a train every 7-8 minutes by 2011.
At those sorts of frequencies there is no hardship in having to change
as a missed connection is not the end of the world. It is also a world
away from a train every 30 minutes which is not an acceptable level of
service to my mind in a densely populated part of London. That people
in such areas will use a decent, frequent service that goes somewhere
useful is amply demonstrated by the success of the Jubilee Line
Extension at stations like West Ham and Canning Town.

I accept there is always a risk of a delay when changing modes but let's
be real here. The DLR has an excellent record so the risk of a problem
on that leg is remote. The NLL is the more risky proposition but it is
going to get a lot of investment in signalling and new trains. While
there may be issues in the short term with the new assets it is highly
likely that reliability will improve hugely. Thus the overall service,
even with a change, will be in a different league to now.

The only genuine concern that might upset some people is simply that the
interchange at Stratford is going to be somewhat convoluted. The NLL
platforms will be on the north side of the station - platforms 11 and 12
IIRC which is a fair old drag from the current NLL platforms which will
be used by DLR. I do not know if anything is to be done to ease that
interchange with lifts / escalators instead of endless flights of
stairs. Hopefully this issue will be dealt with as effectively as
possible within the limited space and constraints resulting from having
to support the Great Eastern main line.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:53:11 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

Incidentally, anyone know why the NLL is the only railway to
consistently, since the 1970s, to appear on every tube map
(notwithstanding the occasional appearence of the WAGN and sometimes the
Thameslink on more detailed tube maps?)

It's not the only one - the Waterloo & City did too, while it was a BR
line.

(Not that that answers your question. I suspect it's to do with the
fact that the NLL runs almost entirely through LU territory, and has
lots of interchanges with the various Underground lines.)

Paul Corfield wrote:

The only genuine concern that might upset some people is simply that the
interchange at Stratford is going to be somewhat convoluted. The NLL
platforms will be on the north side of the station - platforms 11 and 12
IIRC which is a fair old drag from the current NLL platforms which will
be used by DLR. I do not know if anything is to be done to ease that
interchange with lifts / escalators instead of endless flights of
stairs. Hopefully this issue will be dealt with as effectively as
possible within the limited space and constraints resulting from having
to support the Great Eastern main line.

Couldn't the passenger tunnels be extended to reach them?

Alternatively, what is going to happen to the NLL track under the station
itself? If it's not being used for anything, could that be made a super
passenger tunnel? (and Stratford really does need better access between
platforms at peak hours)