In message .com,
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

I've never seen a good reason why a (pre-purchased) ODTC on Oyster
shouldn't be acceptable to the TOCs (pre-pay is a more complicated
issue, of course).

AIUI, it seems to be because for some reason you can't load one day
travelcards onto Oyster cards, rather than that the TOCs won't accept
one day travelcards on Oyster.

I think the only reason why you can't load a ODTC onto Oyster is because
it would then be expected to work as a ODTC - i.e. be usable on National
Rail.

I don't think there is any technical reason why it couldn't be done -
Ask Oyster implies that it is only a matter of time: "at present only 7
Day and longer period Travelcards are available on Oyster".

--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:
In message .com,
writes

Paul Terry wrote:

I've never seen a good reason why a (pre-purchased) ODTC on Oyster
shouldn't be acceptable to the TOCs (pre-pay is a more complicated
issue, of course).

AIUI, it seems to be because for some reason you can't load one day
travelcards onto Oyster cards, rather than that the TOCs won't accept
one day travelcards on Oyster.

I think the only reason why you can't load a ODTC onto Oyster is because
it would then be expected to work as a ODTC - i.e. be usable on National
Rail.

I don't think there is any technical reason why it couldn't be done -
Ask Oyster implies that it is only a matter of time: "at present only 7
Day and longer period Travelcards are available on Oyster".


There is no technical reason why ODTCs couldn't be loaded onto Oysters.
However, introducing yet another layer of complication into Oyster might
not be a good idea, and it might delay the rollout of PAYG to the TOCs
(if there is no urgent perceived need for PAYG on NR).

The problem is that ODTC is really a different product to PAYG capping,
so if both were possible on Oyster, users would get even more confused
than they already are.

Until PAYG is rolled out to the TOCs, I really think that the
information about Oyster should be improved somehow.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

There is no technical reason why ODTCs couldn't be loaded onto Oysters.
However, introducing yet another layer of complication into Oyster
might not be a good idea,

How is it more complicated than using a 7-day travelcard on Oyster,
which is already possible?

and it might delay the rollout of PAYG to the TOCs (if there is no
urgent perceived need for PAYG on NR).

I think that the dates for implementation of PAYG are now out of the
hands of the TOCs - would accepting ODTCs involve anything more than
changing information for staff and customers?

The problem is that ODTC is really a different product to PAYG capping,
so if both were possible on Oyster, users would get even more confused
than they already are.

I agree with the former, but much of the latter is due to the current
situation in which only certain types of travelcard are acceptable on
Oyster.

Until PAYG is rolled out to the TOCs, I really think that the
information about Oyster should be improved somehow.

Absolutely

--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Dave Arquati
writes

There is no technical reason why ODTCs couldn't be loaded onto
Oysters. However, introducing yet another layer of complication into
Oyster might not be a good idea,

How is it more complicated than using a 7-day travelcard on Oyster,
which is already possible?

It creates two different (but yet confusingly similar) ways of paying
for a single day's travel.

and it might delay the rollout of PAYG to the TOCs (if there is no
urgent perceived need for PAYG on NR).

I think that the dates for implementation of PAYG are now out of the
hands of the TOCs - would accepting ODTCs involve anything more than
changing information for staff and customers?

There's still some dragging of feet, and it's certainly not out of most
TOCs' hands. TfL are taking over Silverlink Metro in 2007, and the DfT
have mandated Oyster acceptance on SWT in 2009 - but only because they
were laying out the groundwork for new bids. Given that three franchises
have only just started (Greater Western, Thameslink Great Northern and
South Eastern), it could be years before the DfT can mandate Oyster
acceptance on those modes.

For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO), and on TOCs seeing some advantage in
rolling out smartcard operation across their networks.

The problem is that ODTC is really a different product to PAYG
capping, so if both were possible on Oyster, users would get even more
confused than they already are.

I agree with the former, but much of the latter is due to the current
situation in which only certain types of travelcard are acceptable on
Oyster.

I think there is a fairly clear delineation in many users' minds between
day tickets (singles, ODTCs) and season tickets (weeklies, monthlies,
annuals). A day ticket is an occasional and potentially impromptu
purchase, whilst a season ticket requires some advance planning to
decide whether you need it.

I wouldn't consider a one-day travelcard as part of the same "range" as
a season ticket when I think about my travel.

Until PAYG is rolled out to the TOCs, I really think that the
information about Oyster should be improved somehow.

Absolutely


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

I think there is a fairly clear delineation in many users' minds between
day tickets (singles, ODTCs) and season tickets (weeklies, monthlies,
annuals). A day ticket is an occasional and potentially impromptu
purchase, whilst a season ticket requires some advance planning to
decide whether you need it.

I wouldn't consider a one-day travelcard as part of the same "range" as
a season ticket when I think about my travel.

I would disagree with this. To me, the delineation is between simple
single/return tickets and travelcards (of whatever length), because the
latter allow you unlimited journeys within the timeframe, whereas the
former don't.

Patrick

wrote:
For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?


Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years. When
Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to press
ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than spend years
waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with something possibly
workable.

(so why wasn't the ITSO standard based on Oyster, then? for some
reason, the phrase "petty bureaucratic infighting" comes to mind)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Wed, 3 May 2006, John B wrote:

wrote:

For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years. When
Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to press ahead
with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than spend years
waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with something possibly
workable.

(so why wasn't the ITSO standard based on Oyster, then? for some reason,
the phrase "petty bureaucratic infighting" comes to mind)

Closely followed by 'intellectual property rights'.

It's also possible that ITSO does things that Oyster doesn't (a common
property of committee-designed specifications), but i haven't seen a
detailed ITSO vs Oyster comparison.

tom

--
Civis Britannicus sum.

Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because they wanted to implement Oyster without waiting 5 years. When
Oyster was being planned, ITSO didn't exist - TfL decided to press
ahead with its smartcard implementation anyway, rather than spend years
waiting for a bunch of committees to come up with something possibly
workable.

Oh, that makes sense; I had just assumed that ITSO was an
already-existing standard. All sympathy for TOCs now vanishes! g

Patrick

In message .com,
writes
For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO),

Whilst it's frustrating not to be able to use PAYG on NR, I do have
some sympathy with the TOCs regarding the interoperable standard issue.
Why on earth did TfL decide to go with a standalone system?

Because nobody would get their finger out, and somebody had to do
something?

When Oyster was conceived there was no standard.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

For any TOCs other than SWT or Silverlink Metro, the decision is still
in their hands, and probably depends on both TfL converting Oyster to
the interoperable standard (ITSO), and on TOCs seeing some advantage in
rolling out smartcard operation across their networks.

I wouldn't be too pessimistic, though. Southern announced last year that
they are committed to implementing Oyster prepay (with an initial pilot
scheme between Balham and Victoria), zonal fares are set to appear in
January (a pre-requisite for prepay), and I gather that Oyster-ITSO
compatibility trials are well under way.

I guess the other TOCs (and ATOC) remain unenthusiastic, but I noticed
that Peter Hendy said that any existing London TOCs who bid for the
Silverlink concession will be pressed on their wider plans for Oyster.

I still don't really see why the TOCs cannot widen their acceptance of
Oyster travelcards to include the one- and three-day types, in advance
of prepay - but I don't think it will happen.

I wouldn't consider a one-day travelcard as part of the same "range" as
a season ticket when I think about my travel.

No, but the increasing number of people who work from home and commute
to the office on only a couple of days a week (or less) do. It seems odd
that such people, who help reduce the amount of peak-time overcrowding
on the network, get so little encouragement from the current ticketing
arrangements.
--
Paul Terry