asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Isn't another reason simply the fact that the Aldgate terminating
platforms are between the Circle platforms so involve fewer conflicting
movements that at Moorgate or, when the bay existed there, at Liverpool
St?

That's quite correct. Terminating the Met at Moorgate (or Liverpool
Street) would cause more than twice as many conflicting moves as
running it through to Aldgate.

Then that is a good reason for the status quo. :-) All the same one
cannot help but think that the Circle line needs some simplification.
If Crossrail happens then that could be a good opportunity to review
Circle Line operation.

Adrian

wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Isn't another reason simply the fact that the Aldgate terminating
platforms are between the Circle platforms so involve fewer conflicting
movements that at Moorgate or, when the bay existed there, at Liverpool
St?
That's quite correct. Terminating the Met at Moorgate (or Liverpool
Street) would cause more than twice as many conflicting moves as
running it through to Aldgate.

Then that is a good reason for the status quo. :-) All the same one
cannot help but think that the Circle line needs some simplification.
If Crossrail happens then that could be a good opportunity to review
Circle Line operation.

AIUI there are already plans to ditch the Circle line in a few years
(after the new S stock is in place, I think) - by diverting the H&C east
of Liverpool Street to Edgware Road via Tower Hill and Victoria (the
"tea cup") and having the Met take over H&C services east of Liverpool
Street.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Isn't another reason simply the fact that the Aldgate terminating
platforms are between the Circle platforms so involve fewer conflicting
movements that at Moorgate or, when the bay existed there, at Liverpool
St?
That's quite correct. Terminating the Met at Moorgate (or Liverpool
Street) would cause more than twice as many conflicting moves as
running it through to Aldgate.

Then that is a good reason for the status quo. :-) All the same one
cannot help but think that the Circle line needs some simplification.
If Crossrail happens then that could be a good opportunity to review
Circle Line operation.

AIUI there are already plans to ditch the Circle line in a few years
(after the new S stock is in place, I think) - by diverting the H&C east
of Liverpool Street to Edgware Road via Tower Hill and Victoria (the
"tea cup") and having the Met take over H&C services east of Liverpool
Street.



I was assured by someone commuting to Victoria via Liverpool Street
that the Circle Line was a myth, and it always had to be
Central/Victoria Lines.

But anyway, how would Aldgate to tower Hill be covered? How would
Edgware Road cope with terminating services from both Victoria and
Wimbledon? Is there a downloadable source for the plans?

MIG wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Isn't another reason simply the fact that the Aldgate terminating
platforms are between the Circle platforms so involve fewer conflicting
movements that at Moorgate or, when the bay existed there, at Liverpool
St?
That's quite correct. Terminating the Met at Moorgate (or Liverpool
Street) would cause more than twice as many conflicting moves as
running it through to Aldgate.
Then that is a good reason for the status quo. :-) All the same one
cannot help but think that the Circle line needs some simplification.
If Crossrail happens then that could be a good opportunity to review
Circle Line operation.
AIUI there are already plans to ditch the Circle line in a few years
(after the new S stock is in place, I think) - by diverting the H&C east
of Liverpool Street to Edgware Road via Tower Hill and Victoria (the
"tea cup") and having the Met take over H&C services east of Liverpool
Street.

I was assured by someone commuting to Victoria via Liverpool Street
that the Circle Line was a myth, and it always had to be
Central/Victoria Lines.

Having frequently attempted Gloucester Road to Marylebone, the
Picc/Bakerloo was always much more reliable than the Circle. So I agree
- I have much more faith in the Central & Victoria lines than the Circle!

But anyway, how would Aldgate to tower Hill be covered? How would
Edgware Road cope with terminating services from both Victoria and
Wimbledon? Is there a downloadable source for the plans?

Aldgate to Tower Hill would be covered by the new H&C service (which
would be Hammersmith - Edgware Rd - Liverpool St - Aldgate - Tower Hill
- Victoria - Edgware Road).

The available information is getting a bit old now. I have a summary on
my site which doesn't go into much more detail than this; there are also
a couple of other pages more worth looking at:

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/39
http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/SS...%20Upgrade.htm
http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave...ade_plans.html


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
MIG wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Isn't another reason simply the fact that the Aldgate terminating
platforms are between the Circle platforms so involve fewer conflicting
movements that at Moorgate or, when the bay existed there, at Liverpool
St?
That's quite correct. Terminating the Met at Moorgate (or Liverpool
Street) would cause more than twice as many conflicting moves as
running it through to Aldgate.
Then that is a good reason for the status quo. :-) All the same one
cannot help but think that the Circle line needs some simplification.
If Crossrail happens then that could be a good opportunity to review
Circle Line operation.
AIUI there are already plans to ditch the Circle line in a few years
(after the new S stock is in place, I think) - by diverting the H&C east
of Liverpool Street to Edgware Road via Tower Hill and Victoria (the
"tea cup") and having the Met take over H&C services east of Liverpool
Street.

I was assured by someone commuting to Victoria via Liverpool Street
that the Circle Line was a myth, and it always had to be
Central/Victoria Lines.

Having frequently attempted Gloucester Road to Marylebone, the
Picc/Bakerloo was always much more reliable than the Circle. So I agree
- I have much more faith in the Central & Victoria lines than the Circle!

But anyway, how would Aldgate to tower Hill be covered? How would
Edgware Road cope with terminating services from both Victoria and
Wimbledon? Is there a downloadable source for the plans?

Aldgate to Tower Hill would be covered by the new H&C service (which
would be Hammersmith - Edgware Rd - Liverpool St - Aldgate - Tower Hill
- Victoria - Edgware Road).

The available information is getting a bit old now. I have a summary on
my site which doesn't go into much more detail than this; there are also
a couple of other pages more worth looking at:

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/39
http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/SS...%20Upgrade.htm
http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave...ade_plans.html



Aha; thanks. I think the concerns expressed in tubprune are rather
important and perhaps insurmountable, including the Edgware Road
terminating. It looks as if the frequency from Hammersmith to Edgware
Road would have to double in the off-peak (less in the peak, when the
Circle services don't increase).

I bet that in practice the Aldgate to Edgware Road via Victoria section
would be curtailed even more often than the current Circle is, with the
terminating problem added to the usual reasons.

MIG wrote:

I was assured by someone commuting to Victoria via Liverpool Street
that the Circle Line was a myth, and it always had to be
Central/Victoria Lines.

It is a very low frequency service compared with the rest of LUL - I
think it only runs every 10 minutes or so.

Neil

Neil Williams wrote:
MIG wrote:

I was assured by someone commuting to Victoria via Liverpool Street
that the Circle Line was a myth, and it always had to be
Central/Victoria Lines.

It is a very low frequency service compared with the rest of LUL - I
think it only runs every 10 minutes or so.

It's every 8.5 minutes, but if there's any disruption there's a tendency
to withdraw the Circle trains to give the other lines a better chance to
recover.

But anyway, how would Aldgate to tower Hill be covered?

By "Tea-cup" services that would run Hammersmith - Edgware Road -
Liverpool Street - Aldgate - Tower Hill - Gloucester Road - Edgware
Road, then back again in reverse.

How would Edgware Road cope with terminating services from both
Victoria and Wimbledon?

Good question! (The "Victoria" service would be the "Tea-cup" service
described above.) I thought the change was meant to improve reliability
by giving the "Circle" trains a chance to recover delays, but the
layover at Edgware Road will be so short, I can't see it being any
better.

Is there a downloadable source for the plans?

None in detail AFAIK

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)