In article ,
] (Arthur Figgis) wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:20:27 +0100, "David Biddulph"
wrote:

"Arthur Figgis" ] wrote in message
.. .
On 29 Jul 2006 04:08:49 -0700, "
wrote:

But, does Cambridge University not still have a mandatory College
resistration system for students' bicycles? I remember my number
-
Q283, from all those years ago! I'm not sure what the sanction
was for failing to register and/or display one's number.

Yes it does (I'm told), and I've no idea what the penalty is, or
even if the situation ever arises.

In my day the fine for most offences was six shillings and eight
pence. More severe offences warranted thirteen shillings and four
pence.

It probably still is!

No. Those rates went with decimalisation.

A sign once went up warning us of a GBP25 fine for removing books
from the college library without signing them out. Someone (*cough*)
wrote "But how will you know?" on the bottom. The next day someone else
had added "That's not the point, you moral reprobate". (Quite a few of
us spotted that it was cheaper to pay 3-4 years of weekly overdue book
fines than actually buy the books)

FWIW, when I put the radio on tonight I got the tail end of
something about a student last century who noticed that while he wasn't
allowed a car in the city, the rules said nothing about aeroplanes.

I heard that programme. I assume that was why the Motor Proctor became
the Special Pro-Proctor for Motor Vehicles and Aircraft at some point.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin McKenzie wrote:

No, it is important, in producing a more cycle-friendly and
pedestrian-friendly road system. A couple of illustrations. (snip)

I wasn't suggesting 130kph limits where bikes are, or pedestrians!

Even though many European countries have more cyclists than us, they
don't appear to share the main road on faster routes. Do they have
cycle lanes, are they too scared, or do they (as seen quite clearly on
the autobahns) have a car with their bikes attached to the back of them
for longer journies?

In Sweden, cyclists rarely have to go on a main road. Therefore you
don't have to worry about trying to create a magical road where
cyclists at one speed share roadspace with cars at another without any
problems. Oh, and the roads are wider too, even though they have less
traffic. The cars here respect the limit and drive spot on 50kph
without the need for cameras (reserved for the faster roads where they
will do 130-140kph in a 110).

It's shockingly rare to see kids racing around like loons, and the
boy-racer brigade simply doesn't exist in the way it does in the UK.
Forget modded Novas and 206's, it's more likely a V6 saloon cruising
around and only taken at speed on an E roads. There's much more
influence from the US than UK! I do wonder if the increased likelihood
of being pulled up by the boys in blue also plays a part?

We have a multitude of problems in the UK to address before you can
solve the problems on the roads. Many aren't solvable at all without
starting over with road design, and in London that's as good as
impossible. I can understand why cutting speed is deemed the easy
option, perhaps the only option, but we can see it isn't enough.

Jonathan

On 30 Jul 2006 15:09:20 -0700, "Jonathan Morris"
wrote:

congokid wrote:
police or traffic-light cameras. It's rare to see cars go through red
traffic lights (I see maybe one every couple of months)

That's odd. I used to see motorists drive through red at virtually every
junction on my commute to work from Fulham to the West End. Every day.

Yes, I have to say that at a junction you will see people accelerate on
amber (even though there's nobody behind them) or jump red. However,
you may get one car or perhaps two but after that, it sorts itself out.
This is why red light cameras are such a good idea, but surprisingly
rare compared to speed cameras.

I have to say that you either live in an area where car drivers are
spectacularly well behaved, or you're rather naive.

At certain junctions in the Hammersmith and Shepherds Bush areas,
where there are no cameras and the drivers know it, I see cars pile
through red lights for a good ten seconds after the lights went a firm
red. I see this every single day. There is a traffic light controlled
T-junction on to the Hammersmith Road near my house that may as well
not have lights on the minor road because so many drivers (generally
on foreign plates) just ignore them and drive straight on to the main
road. Similarly with banned turns, completely ignored, even if the
banned turn is one to protect crossing pedestrians. There is a section
of The Grove in Hammersmith where car drivers consistently sit in the
wrong side lane and to hell with any oncoming cars.

The answer is not number plates on bikes so that cameras can pick them
up, it is to return real human police officers to the road and
properly police both cyclists and cars. No need to have stacks and
stacks of traffic police, just enough to swoop at random (unmarked
cars would be best) and control the roads through fear that one might
get caught.

Roy Stilling wrote:

I know there's not a hope of Ken getting this through, but as a
pedestrian who walks from Cannon Street to Clerkenwell and back every
working day and sees cyclists riding on pavements and through red
lights every such day, I'd love to see it happen.

I'd personally far rather see more police on the streets to catch them.
In my opinion, almost-Orwellian surveillance is not the answer.

Neil

Peter Frimberley wrote:
I have to say that you either live in an area where car drivers are
spectacularly well behaved, or you're rather naive.

I don't know any area where drivers are spectacularly well behaved, but
your example isn't common - although I will say that I have noticed
similar behavior near Earls Court and wonder if it's worse in that part
of town? If so, what causes it? Yes cars and vans jump lights
everywhere (and so do bendy buses, despite the fact they're so long
they're guaranteed to cause disruption) but ten seconds after? THAT is
spectacular, and you wouldn't even expect that in places like Tottenham
or Hackney!

One suggestion is the congestion that means some junctions can take
forever to negotiate unless you jump, or creep through, lights. And
when lots of lanes merge down, that also creates problems (as indeed,
when motorists drive down the wrong lane to cut in and jump the queue).
Bad road design plays a part here, and only real police can deal with
that sort of thing.

The answer is not number plates on bikes so that cameras can pick them
up, it is to return real human police officers to the road and
properly police both cyclists and cars.

Exactly as I said too. I hope common sense prevails.

Regards,

Jonathan

Neil Williams wrote:
I'd personally far rather see more police on the streets to catch them.
In my opinion, almost-Orwellian surveillance is not the answer.

I'd be for registration if it was workable and enforceable. However,
living in the real world it's clear it wouldn't be. So, the quicker the
idea is dropped the better.

The powers that be don't seem to want to officially disclose what the
number of false/cloned plates in use to avoid parking tickets, CC,
speeding fines is, but it IS significant I have no doubt*. In
Stockholm, where I am now, it's suddenly become a massive problem that
didn't exist before (since their introduction of a congestion charge
enforced by number plate cameras) and has been reported as such,
presumably because it's officially still on trial.

This would simply happen with bikes and you can't seriously imagine a
load of people being employed to try and trace the offending cyclists!

Jonathan

* There's another problem too; those that ARE caught can use the cloned
plate argument as a defence. Either way, a police officer catching you
on the street does away with this and possibly gets the offender for
other things too.

Boltar ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

Bicycles arn't road vehicles.

Of course they are.

YOu can ride them in parks, in fields , up hills , wherever its allowed.

Just like 4x4 cars, then?

I think you might find yourself in the minority there. You can just
imagine some bored plod or traffic warden giving some poor cyclist a
ticket for some minor infraction just as happens with cars today. Can't
see cycling lasting long if that happens.

Sorry? Cycling cannot survive cyclists having to obey the law? Are you
really trying to say that?

On 31 Jul 2006 14:13:57 -0700, "Jonathan Morris"
wrote:

The powers that be don't seem to want to officially disclose what the
number of false/cloned plates in use to avoid parking tickets, CC,
speeding fines is, but it IS significant I have no doubt.

1 in 250 was the rate quoted in a newspaper whose title escapes me at
the moment. That is a high value if true. It's possible the clones are
using similar car makes to the victims' original too which presents a
major problem for the innocents: it seems the onus is on the innocent
at present to "prove" innocence but I haven't seen any cases where
"clone!" was a successful defence. It's bound to happen and the sooner
the better - the current CC system is very expensive at 50mil/year (to
raise 47), poorly signed (no ON or OFF at the boundary such as used in
the US) and depends 100% on a bit of plastic containing letters and
numbers.

In other words ready for undermining.

--
Old anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com appears broke
So back to cmylod at bigfoot dot com

Colum Mylod wrote:
1 in 250 was the rate quoted in a newspaper whose title escapes me at
the moment. That is a high value if true. It's possible the clones are
using similar car makes to the victims' original too which presents a
major problem for the innocents:

Yes, that is how it works. It means you can avoid ANPR in police cars
too, assuming the car you've cloned is okay as far as the DVLA is
concerned.

If you used any plate, it would stand out if the police (or Capita) did
any manual checks.

The other trick, more common now (an increase of 2000%) is bringing
your foreign registered car from another EU state and never
re-registering it here even after many years have passed. We've got
loads of Polish cars on our estate (but that's just as it is here, it
certainly isn't isolated to just one country), many which are in no way
roadworthy. They get no hassle at all. Nor will they get tickets,
speeding penalties or anything else. In fact, while they probably need
third party insurance if they ARE stopped, they don't need an MOT or
road tax either.

You can't just blame the 'foreigners within the EU', because a car
magazine highlighted how easy it is for any Brit to do the same. I'm
sure a lot of foreign cars over here are owned by people using them to
avoid detection. In fact, in many ways I can see why I might want to do
it myself until honesty kicks in.

And the Government still thinks a camera in a box and plastic police on
the ground is the way forward?

Jonathan

Jonathan Morris ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

The other trick, more common now (an increase of 2000%) is bringing
your foreign registered car from another EU state and never
re-registering it here even after many years have passed. We've got
loads of Polish cars on our estate (but that's just as it is here, it
certainly isn't isolated to just one country), many which are in no way
roadworthy. They get no hassle at all. Nor will they get tickets,
speeding penalties or anything else. In fact, while they probably need
third party insurance if they ARE stopped, they don't need an MOT or
road tax either.

They are required to be legal in the country of registration - so if Poland
requires insurance/MOT/road tax, those must be current for the vehicle to
be legal in the UK. If Poland doesn't require any of those, then they
aren't required for the vehicle to be legal here - within the temporary
import time limit (6 months?)