Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:20:05 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:

TfL have announced their branding plans for the North London Railway
concession:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=886
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5316358.stm

The hidden news in the press release (which is probably more important
than anything else) is that the onward northern extension to Highbury
has been brought forward to Phase 1 (small print at the bottom: "The
Mayor today made a commitment that Phase 1 of the East London Line
Project would be extended from Dalston Junction to Highbury & Islington,
in order to make a connection with the North London Railway").

And hooray for an outbreak of common sense. I am very pleased that the
"round the corner" link is to be part of the first phase rather than
simply being a possibility that might happen "sometime never". [1]

[1] excuse the cynicism but I think delivery of phase 2 of the ELLX is
significantly at risk due to both monetary and political pressures. I
hope it will happen but I wouldn't hold my breath.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Listening to some commentary on the radio last night it was stated that
running trains from Dalston Junc to Highbury is going to cost £400M.
Bearing in mind that all that needs to be done on the face of it is
reinstate a few hundred yards of track what is going to cost half a
Wembley Stadium of half a Dome.

Kevin

Kev wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:20:05 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:

TfL have announced their branding plans for the North London Railway
concession:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=886
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5316358.stm

The hidden news in the press release (which is probably more important
than anything else) is that the onward northern extension to Highbury
has been brought forward to Phase 1 (small print at the bottom: "The
Mayor today made a commitment that Phase 1 of the East London Line
Project would be extended from Dalston Junction to Highbury & Islington,
in order to make a connection with the North London Railway").
And hooray for an outbreak of common sense. I am very pleased that the
"round the corner" link is to be part of the first phase rather than
simply being a possibility that might happen "sometime never". [1]

[1] excuse the cynicism but I think delivery of phase 2 of the ELLX is
significantly at risk due to both monetary and political pressures. I
hope it will happen but I wouldn't hold my breath.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Listening to some commentary on the radio last night it was stated that
running trains from Dalston Junc to Highbury is going to cost £400M.
Bearing in mind that all that needs to be done on the face of it is
reinstate a few hundred yards of track what is going to cost half a
Wembley Stadium of half a Dome.

Not what I heard - the following parliamentary debate suggests £200m for
the northern part of (what was) Phase 2 - Dalston Junction to Caledonian
Road & Barnsbury. That includes turnback facilities at CR&B, possibly
extra tracks somewhere between there and Dalston, the reinstated curve
at Dalston, a replacement junction on the NLL (obviously the old one
isn't there any more) and probably some resignalling.

Then again, reinstating a significantly longer section of track in south
London and building a new station at Surrey Canal Road seems to cost
much less (£75m), so I'm not sure what difference is for. Is the
formation at Dalston still in Network Rail's hands?


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:


Not what I heard - the following parliamentary debate suggests £200m for
the northern part of (what was) Phase 2 - Dalston Junction to Caledonian
Road & Barnsbury. That includes turnback facilities at CR&B, possibly
extra tracks somewhere between there and Dalston, the reinstated curve
at Dalston, a replacement junction on the NLL (obviously the old one
isn't there any more) and probably some resignalling.

Then again, reinstating a significantly longer section of track in south
London and building a new station at Surrey Canal Road seems to cost
much less (£75m), so I'm not sure what difference is for. Is the
formation at Dalston still in Network Rail's hands?


The figure quoted could have been rubbish of course.

Kevin

Kev wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

Not what I heard - the following parliamentary debate suggests £200m for
the northern part of (what was) Phase 2 - Dalston Junction to Caledonian
Road & Barnsbury. That includes turnback facilities at CR&B, possibly
extra tracks somewhere between there and Dalston, the reinstated curve
at Dalston, a replacement junction on the NLL (obviously the old one
isn't there any more) and probably some resignalling.

Then again, reinstating a significantly longer section of track in south
London and building a new station at Surrey Canal Road seems to cost
much less (£75m), so I'm not sure what difference is for. Is the
formation at Dalston still in Network Rail's hands?


The figure quoted could have been rubbish of course.

I think for any major public project, cost quotes can vary so wildly
between reports to be as good as useless.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 10:46:40 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

Listening to some commentary on the radio last night it was stated that
running trains from Dalston Junc to Highbury is going to cost £400M.
Bearing in mind that all that needs to be done on the face of it is
reinstate a few hundred yards of track what is going to cost half a
Wembley Stadium of half a Dome.

Not what I heard - the following parliamentary debate suggests £200m for
the northern part of (what was) Phase 2 - Dalston Junction to Caledonian
Road & Barnsbury. That includes turnback facilities at CR&B, possibly
extra tracks somewhere between there and Dalston, the reinstated curve
at Dalston, a replacement junction on the NLL (obviously the old one
isn't there any more) and probably some resignalling.

Then again, reinstating a significantly longer section of track in south
London and building a new station at Surrey Canal Road seems to cost
much less (£75m), so I'm not sure what difference is for. Is the
formation at Dalston still in Network Rail's hands?

Perhaps not: the property listing section of the British Railways
Board (Residuary) website (see http://www.brb.gov.uk/property)
suggests that the west curve at Dalston may have been sold off.

http://www.brb.gov.uk/property/prope...ounty=l&page=3

"Dalston Junction: Western Junction closed line: Sold"

Dave Arquati wrote:

Rather than opting for the brown "Rail" roundel, the branding scheme is
an orange (!) "Overground" scheme - not to be confused with South
London's "Overground Network" branding.

Trains and signs will have an orange trim, there will be an Overground
roundel almost identical to the Underground one but with an orange
circle (and obviously the different word).


Going back to the branding, all "Overground" lines will appear on the
Tube map, which TfL has released a sample of for 2010. Interestingly,
the line style (white centre with orange edges) looks much like the old
style used to show selected British Rail lines (like Thameslink and the
NLL) about fifteen years ago.

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to. At the very least, the East London
Line Extension should run in to Highbury parallel to the line from
Stratford, and terminate there. In the same way as the Metropolitan
does at Aldgate or the District at Edgware Road.

Peter

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to. At the very least, the East London
Line Extension should run in to Highbury parallel to the line from
Stratford, and terminate there. In the same way as the Metropolitan
does at Aldgate or the District at Edgware Road.

You could say the same for the DLR.

Peter Heather wrote:

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to.

This assumes that this is not the plan. I'm not sure that the penny
has dropped that an orbital railway is a good idea, but orbital train
services are not. There is no point running trains from Richmond to
West Croydon via Gospel Oak. Instead, trains should come in from
outside, go round for a bit, then go outwards again. Probably a third
of the way round is about right, in overlapping sections. Thus
Richmond to Stratford overlaps Watford to New Cross and Clapham
Junction to Barking - and the latter should possibly extend beyond CJ
- e.g. to Hampton Court.

This maximises journeys possible with one change.

Colin McKenzie

--
On average in Britain, you're more likely to get a head injury walking
a mile than cycling it.
So why aren't we all exhorted to wear walking helmets?

Colin McKenzie wrote:
Peter Heather wrote:

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to.

This assumes that this is not the plan. I'm not sure that the penny has
dropped that an orbital railway is a good idea, but orbital train
services are not. There is no point running trains from Richmond to West
Croydon via Gospel Oak. Instead, trains should come in from outside, go
round for a bit, then go outwards again. Probably a third of the way
round is about right, in overlapping sections. Thus Richmond to
Stratford overlaps Watford to New Cross and Clapham Junction to Barking
- and the latter should possibly extend beyond CJ - e.g. to Hampton Court.

This maximises journeys possible with one change.

....but also maximises performance pollution (unfortunately).


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On 5 Sep 2006 14:12:40 -0700, "Peter Heather"
wrote:


Dave Arquati wrote:

Going back to the branding, all "Overground" lines will appear on the
Tube map, which TfL has released a sample of for 2010. Interestingly,
the line style (white centre with orange edges) looks much like the old
style used to show selected British Rail lines (like Thameslink and the
NLL) about fifteen years ago.

But why on earth have they lumped all the Overground lines together as
if they were one line. The Underground lines being different colours
and names makes it pretty clear where trains are going. But the
Overground lines as shown make it appear that you could, for example,
catch a train direct from West Croydon to Richmond or Clapham Junction
via Gospel Oak, should you want to. At the very least, the East London
Line Extension should run in to Highbury parallel to the line from
Stratford, and terminate there. In the same way as the Metropolitan
does at Aldgate or the District at Edgware Road.

As service patterns seem to be open to a lot of debate there is no point
showing separate services at this point. The point of the map is to
simply make the routes stand out relative to the rest of the lines. As
has already been said the DLR is shown as one network on the main map.
this is probably just as well because the differing peak / off peak
services would make the map overly fussy and out of scale. I would
personally quite like to see separate lines for the Overground but that
would depend on how complex the eventual service pattern is.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!