Exactly Paul


I was amazed that Silverlink staff/stations are being absorbed into LU
whereas presumably East London Line station/train staff are being
firmed up for privitisation!!!!

On 5 Dec 2006 12:37:30 -0800, wrote:

The stations to come under London Underground control a

Queen's Park to Harrow & Wealdstone on the Bakerloo line, excluding
Willesden Junction

Interesting that Harrow & Wealdstone is transferring to LU, even
though its main service is (arguably) Silverlink County. I'd have
expected it to be like Barking, Upminster, Wimbledon, Richmond, Ealing
Broadway, Lewisham, etc, and remain with a TOC (whichever one gets the
West Midlands franchise).

I can see it being awkward if it doesn't retain a National Rail ticket
office, and therefore becomes unable to sell the full range of NR
tickets (e.g. it could have a direct service to Milton Keynes or
Birmingham but not be able to sell overnight returns to those places).

And presumably none of the Bakerloo stations would any longer be able
to sell the cheaper season tickets to London Terminals. You'd have to
buy a single to Euston, then queue up and buy your season there,
reclaiming the cost of the single.

Meanwhile, Willesden Junction, which will only be served by London
Underground/Overground, remains with a TOC...

wrote:

Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone and Transport for London today
announced that eleven stations currently managed by Silverlink Metro
will become the operational responsibility of London Underground when
the North London Railway transfers to Transport for London in November
2007. The move means that an important part of the overland rail
network in London, along with staff currently employed by Silverlink
Metro, will pass into the public sector, bringing investment and safety
improvements for passengers and staff alike.

The stations have suffered from a lack of investment and are felt by
many passengers to be extremely unwelcoming. Modernisation plans are
now being developed to improve staffing levels, and station safety and
security. The Mayor is committed to ensuring that all stations will be
staffed at all times while trains are running, and better lighting,
CCTV and help points are to be fitted at all stations.

The stations to come under London Underground control a

Queen's Park to Harrow & Wealdstone on the Bakerloo line, excluding
Willesden Junction
Kew Gardens and Gunnersbury on the District line
North London Railway platforms at Blackhorse Road, Highbury & Islington
and West Brompton stations.
Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London said:

"The transfer of these stations to London Underground in 2007 will
allow us to invest in better staffing and security for passengers.
Public sector control of these stations will mean real improvements -
including putting staff back into stations where the public want to see
them, giving passengers a more visible and reassuring presence
throughout opening hours.

"I welcome the transfer of these staff to London Underground."

Tim O'Toole, LU Managing Director said:

"This is a great opportunity for London Underground that I'm sure
will be welcomed by passengers.

"The proposal reflects the fact that London Underground is already
the operator of the majority of train services from these stations. We
have plans to invest in and improve these stations - they have suffered
from a lack of investment and passengers often feel unsafe while
waiting for their trains. We also plan to improve safety and security,
with staff at stations as long as they are open.

"We will now work to reach an agreement with our trade unions to
enable London Underground to operate these stations, which recognises
that Network Rail will continue to manage and maintain the
infrastructure."

Network Rail will retain ownership of the stations and will still own
and maintain the track north of Queen's Park and along the length of
the North London Railway. A station refurbishment programme is planned
to commence during 2008.

Staff currently employed by Silverlink Metro at these stations will
transfer to LU under Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of
Employment) regulations.

Following transfer, stations will be staffed throughout the operating
day leading to immediate improvements in safety and security.


That's a pretty sensible change I think.

One potential future anomaly - if/when the Bakerloo line takes over the
service all the way up to Watford Junction I wonder if there'll be any
clamour from the staff for the affected stations (such as Hatch End) to
switch from being the responsibility of the NLR concessionaire to that
of LU?

A further observation from what's said in the statement - it looks like
TfL is already nurturing Network Rail so they both have a productive
relationship, as opposed to the possibility of Network Rail becoming
possesive for fear of TfL stepping on their shoes.

I'm sure that Network Rail are a little wary as in a sense they will
become another infraco that TfL has to deal with - I'm sure they don't
fancy being publicly derided by TfL in a similar manner to Metronet.
That said Network Rail are in essence a public sector organisation, and
their not for profit status chimes with the Mayor's views. Nontheless
they'll still have to deliver!

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ps.com...
wrote:

One potential future anomaly - if/when the Bakerloo line takes over the
service all the way up to Watford Junction I wonder if there'll be any
clamour from the staff for the affected stations (such as Hatch End) to
switch from being the responsibility of the NLR concessionaire to that
of LU?


If as expected the Bakerloo takes over the DC lines completely, they will
have the majority of trains and therefore 'operate' the stations. That
doesn't imply that _all_ the staff will work for LU though, just like places
like Wimbledon and Richmond, where they are NR stations with some LU staff,
and Stratford, which is a NR station 'operated by' LU, with 'one' staff for
the NR parts. Ticket offices seem to coexist at these places now, why not
in the future?

Paul

"asdf" wrote in message
...

I can see it being awkward if it doesn't retain a National Rail ticket
office, and therefore becomes unable to sell the full range of NR
tickets (e.g. it could have a direct service to Milton Keynes or
Birmingham but not be able to sell overnight returns to those places).

Why shouldn't both ticket types be available if NR still operate a service -
Stratford is operated by LU, but has a NR ticket office. I think you are
creating a problem that doesn't exist at joint stations now, why should it
in the future?

And presumably none of the Bakerloo stations would any longer be able
to sell the cheaper season tickets to London Terminals. You'd have to
buy a single to Euston, then queue up and buy your season there,
reclaiming the cost of the single.

Will it still be cheaper, with NR adopting zonal fares for seasons
eventually?

Meanwhile, Willesden Junction, which will only be served by London
Underground/Overground, remains with a TOC...

It has to be expected it will be the TfL Overground franchisee, will they be
known as a TOC or not?

Is it because there are planned to be more 'overground' services than
'underground' ? They will be basing their assumptions on the eventual steady
state of the NLL, not the present number of tph.

Paul S

Paul Scott wrote:

Will it still be cheaper, with NR adopting zonal fares for seasons
eventually?

The National Rail network in the London area is already moving fares towards
a zonal structure, as this is required before full Oyster integration can
happen. Most of the alignment will take place over the next couple of years,
resulting in a full, combined zonal structure for both Underground and
overground fares (note the lower case 'o' on overground).

"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
...

The National Rail network in the London area is already moving fares
towards a zonal structure, as this is required before full Oyster
integration can happen. Most of the alignment will take place over the
next couple of years, resulting in a full, combined zonal structure for
both Underground and overground fares (note the lower case 'o' on
overground).

Duly noted! - there are at least 3 current uses of 'overground' that I can
think of;
everyone will need to be sure what they are referring to....

1. anything at all that isn't 'underground'
2. the South London 'Overground Network'
3. the ex Silverlink Metro services

Daft isn't it

Paul

Paul Scott wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message
ps.com...
wrote:

One potential future anomaly - if/when the Bakerloo line takes over the
service all the way up to Watford Junction I wonder if there'll be any
clamour from the staff for the affected stations (such as Hatch End) to
switch from being the responsibility of the NLR concessionaire to that
of LU?


If as expected the Bakerloo takes over the DC lines completely, they will
have the majority of trains and therefore 'operate' the stations.

That's what I presumed would be the case, but there's nothing in the
statement one way or another regarding this, presumably because the
Bakerloo returning to Watford Junction is still some way off.


That
doesn't imply that _all_ the staff will work for LU though, just like places
like Wimbledon and Richmond, where they are NR stations with some LU staff,
and Stratford, which is a NR station 'operated by' LU, with 'one' staff for
the NR parts. Ticket offices seem to coexist at these places now, why not
in the future?

My use of the word anomaly wasn't really appropriate - it was just an
observation really. All I was saying was that the stations on the DC
line north of Harrow & Wealdstone up to Watford Junction (i.e.
Headstone Lane, Hatch End, Carpenders Park, Bushey and Watford High
Street) will not transfer over to LU responsibility, initially at
least, but will be the domain of the North London Railway
concessionaire. This obviously makes sense at the moment as they have
no LU service - in the future, if things go to TfL's plan, they will
solely be served by LU. Logic would suggest that TfL will then transfer
responsibility for said stations to LU, which would b consistent with
the above announcement, though that needn't happen and they could of
course continue to be NLR stations.

I presume the statement doesn't tackle that because - as I said above -
the Bakerloo line's complete takeover of the DC lines up to Watford
Junction hasn't yet been confirmed.

Silverlink County, or whatever the new NR franchise holder is called,
will presumably still operate Watford Junction, so my above ramblings
doesn't concern that station.

If the pay, conditions and benefits afforded to NLR staff are the same
as LU ones, then it's all pretty academic anyway as I guess it wouldn't
really make a great difference to them one way or the other which of
the two organisations (LU or NLR) they worked for.

On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:56:37 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

I can see it being awkward if it doesn't retain a National Rail ticket
office, and therefore becomes unable to sell the full range of NR
tickets (e.g. it could have a direct service to Milton Keynes or
Birmingham but not be able to sell overnight returns to those places).

Why shouldn't both ticket types be available if NR still operate a service -
Stratford is operated by LU, but has a NR ticket office. I think you are
creating a problem that doesn't exist at joint stations now, why should it
in the future?

Good point - I'd forgotten about Stratford. ISTM the same arrangement
would suit Harrow & Wealdstone.

I'm not sure the problem doesn't exist now, though. Can you buy a
Saver Return to Brighton at West Brompton? The fare does exist, and
there is a direct service, but AFAIK LU ticket offices (which is all
WB has) don't sell Saver Returns (or any return valid for longer than
a day).

asdf wrote:

On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:56:37 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

I can see it being awkward if it doesn't retain a National Rail ticket
office, and therefore becomes unable to sell the full range of NR
tickets (e.g. it could have a direct service to Milton Keynes or
Birmingham but not be able to sell overnight returns to those places).

Why shouldn't both ticket types be available if NR still operate a service -
Stratford is operated by LU, but has a NR ticket office. I think you are
creating a problem that doesn't exist at joint stations now, why should it
in the future?

Good point - I'd forgotten about Stratford. ISTM the same arrangement
would suit Harrow & Wealdstone.

IIRC Stratford station became the responsibility of LU when the Jubilee
Line opened there (though obviously TOC staff remained to manage the NR
platforms). AIUI when this happened LU took over the whole ticket
office. The 'one' ticket office windows are a relatively recent
bolt-on. I suspect they came to be because the LU ticket windows are
just so busy (they remain so today) and the new 'one' windows provided
some relief - plus they remove the more complex and time consuming
ticket purchases away from the LU windows. And earn 'one' some money of
course!

The Stratford arrangement was thus not planned! Quite why Stratford was
desinged with so few LU ticket windows remains a mystery...


I'm not sure the problem doesn't exist now, though. Can you buy a
Saver Return to Brighton at West Brompton? The fare does exist, and
there is a direct service, but AFAIK LU ticket offices (which is all
WB has) don't sell Saver Returns (or any return valid for longer than
a day).

According to page 19 of the full July '06 TfL ticket booklet (which
isn't on the TfL site anymore but I've put it up on the web for
reference [1]):

"If you wish to buy a ticket to a National Rail destination from a
ticket machine at a Tube or DLR station, you can only do so if your
destination is shown. If it is not, you may be able to buy your ticket
from the Tube station's ticket office - but we generally only sell
tickets to National Rail destinations within the London and South East
area. [...]"

Which is spectacularly unspecific about exactly what NR ticket types
they sell! It does suggest you could at least get some kind of ticket
to get you to Brighton. In practice as the station isn't in a penalty
fares zone for either Southern or Virgin services (not sure about
Silverlink's West London Line services though) I'm almost certain you'd
just be let through the gate to buy it on the train.

-----
[1] http://mizter.t.googlepages.com/TfL_...06.pdf#page=10