Exactly Paul


I was amazed that Silverlink staff/stations are being absorbed into LU
whereas presumably East London Line station/train staff are being
firmed up for privitisation!!!!

In message , John Rowland
writes
wrote:
Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone and Transport for London today
announced that eleven stations currently managed by Silverlink Metro
will become the operational responsibility of London Underground

snip

"We will now work to reach an agreement with our trade unions to
enable London Underground to operate these stations,

By saying it *will* happen before they have reached an agreement with the
union, haven't they put themselves over a barrel?

Maybe, a bit like saying the later running on the Underground *will*
happen, without agreeing it with their drivers first.

This is still a major bone of contention of the April 2006 (yes, 2006)
pay deal.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

On 5 Dec 2006 12:37:30 -0800, wrote:

The stations to come under London Underground control a

Queen's Park to Harrow & Wealdstone on the Bakerloo line, excluding
Willesden Junction

Interesting that Harrow & Wealdstone is transferring to LU, even
though its main service is (arguably) Silverlink County. I'd have
expected it to be like Barking, Upminster, Wimbledon, Richmond, Ealing
Broadway, Lewisham, etc, and remain with a TOC (whichever one gets the
West Midlands franchise).

I can see it being awkward if it doesn't retain a National Rail ticket
office, and therefore becomes unable to sell the full range of NR
tickets (e.g. it could have a direct service to Milton Keynes or
Birmingham but not be able to sell overnight returns to those places).

And presumably none of the Bakerloo stations would any longer be able
to sell the cheaper season tickets to London Terminals. You'd have to
buy a single to Euston, then queue up and buy your season there,
reclaiming the cost of the single.

Meanwhile, Willesden Junction, which will only be served by London
Underground/Overground, remains with a TOC...

"asdf" wrote in message
...

I can see it being awkward if it doesn't retain a National Rail ticket
office, and therefore becomes unable to sell the full range of NR
tickets (e.g. it could have a direct service to Milton Keynes or
Birmingham but not be able to sell overnight returns to those places).

Why shouldn't both ticket types be available if NR still operate a service -
Stratford is operated by LU, but has a NR ticket office. I think you are
creating a problem that doesn't exist at joint stations now, why should it
in the future?

And presumably none of the Bakerloo stations would any longer be able
to sell the cheaper season tickets to London Terminals. You'd have to
buy a single to Euston, then queue up and buy your season there,
reclaiming the cost of the single.

Will it still be cheaper, with NR adopting zonal fares for seasons
eventually?

Meanwhile, Willesden Junction, which will only be served by London
Underground/Overground, remains with a TOC...

It has to be expected it will be the TfL Overground franchisee, will they be
known as a TOC or not?

Is it because there are planned to be more 'overground' services than
'underground' ? They will be basing their assumptions on the eventual steady
state of the NLL, not the present number of tph.

Paul S

Paul Scott wrote:

Will it still be cheaper, with NR adopting zonal fares for seasons
eventually?

The National Rail network in the London area is already moving fares towards
a zonal structure, as this is required before full Oyster integration can
happen. Most of the alignment will take place over the next couple of years,
resulting in a full, combined zonal structure for both Underground and
overground fares (note the lower case 'o' on overground).

"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
...

The National Rail network in the London area is already moving fares
towards a zonal structure, as this is required before full Oyster
integration can happen. Most of the alignment will take place over the
next couple of years, resulting in a full, combined zonal structure for
both Underground and overground fares (note the lower case 'o' on
overground).

Duly noted! - there are at least 3 current uses of 'overground' that I can
think of;
everyone will need to be sure what they are referring to....

1. anything at all that isn't 'underground'
2. the South London 'Overground Network'
3. the ex Silverlink Metro services

Daft isn't it

Paul

On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:56:37 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

I can see it being awkward if it doesn't retain a National Rail ticket
office, and therefore becomes unable to sell the full range of NR
tickets (e.g. it could have a direct service to Milton Keynes or
Birmingham but not be able to sell overnight returns to those places).

Why shouldn't both ticket types be available if NR still operate a service -
Stratford is operated by LU, but has a NR ticket office. I think you are
creating a problem that doesn't exist at joint stations now, why should it
in the future?

Good point - I'd forgotten about Stratford. ISTM the same arrangement
would suit Harrow & Wealdstone.

I'm not sure the problem doesn't exist now, though. Can you buy a
Saver Return to Brighton at West Brompton? The fare does exist, and
there is a direct service, but AFAIK LU ticket offices (which is all
WB has) don't sell Saver Returns (or any return valid for longer than
a day).

asdf wrote:

On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:56:37 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

I can see it being awkward if it doesn't retain a National Rail ticket
office, and therefore becomes unable to sell the full range of NR
tickets (e.g. it could have a direct service to Milton Keynes or
Birmingham but not be able to sell overnight returns to those places).

Why shouldn't both ticket types be available if NR still operate a service -
Stratford is operated by LU, but has a NR ticket office. I think you are
creating a problem that doesn't exist at joint stations now, why should it
in the future?

Good point - I'd forgotten about Stratford. ISTM the same arrangement
would suit Harrow & Wealdstone.

IIRC Stratford station became the responsibility of LU when the Jubilee
Line opened there (though obviously TOC staff remained to manage the NR
platforms). AIUI when this happened LU took over the whole ticket
office. The 'one' ticket office windows are a relatively recent
bolt-on. I suspect they came to be because the LU ticket windows are
just so busy (they remain so today) and the new 'one' windows provided
some relief - plus they remove the more complex and time consuming
ticket purchases away from the LU windows. And earn 'one' some money of
course!

The Stratford arrangement was thus not planned! Quite why Stratford was
desinged with so few LU ticket windows remains a mystery...


I'm not sure the problem doesn't exist now, though. Can you buy a
Saver Return to Brighton at West Brompton? The fare does exist, and
there is a direct service, but AFAIK LU ticket offices (which is all
WB has) don't sell Saver Returns (or any return valid for longer than
a day).

According to page 19 of the full July '06 TfL ticket booklet (which
isn't on the TfL site anymore but I've put it up on the web for
reference [1]):

"If you wish to buy a ticket to a National Rail destination from a
ticket machine at a Tube or DLR station, you can only do so if your
destination is shown. If it is not, you may be able to buy your ticket
from the Tube station's ticket office - but we generally only sell
tickets to National Rail destinations within the London and South East
area. [...]"

Which is spectacularly unspecific about exactly what NR ticket types
they sell! It does suggest you could at least get some kind of ticket
to get you to Brighton. In practice as the station isn't in a penalty
fares zone for either Southern or Virgin services (not sure about
Silverlink's West London Line services though) I'm almost certain you'd
just be let through the gate to buy it on the train.

-----
[1] http://mizter.t.googlepages.com/TfL_...06.pdf#page=10

Mizter T wrote:

The Stratford arrangement was thus not planned! Quite why Stratford was
desinged with so few LU ticket windows remains a mystery...

Aren't there ticket windows over on the Jubilee Line side? Wasn't Stratford
meant to have a second entrance near there? The passenger bridge over the
Jubilee line platforms doesn't make any sense otherwise.

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 23:52:53 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On 5 Dec 2006 12:37:30 -0800, wrote:

The stations to come under London Underground control a

Queen's Park to Harrow & Wealdstone on the Bakerloo line, excluding
Willesden Junction

Interesting that Harrow & Wealdstone is transferring to LU, even
though its main service is (arguably) Silverlink County. I'd have
expected it to be like Barking, Upminster, Wimbledon, Richmond, Ealing
Broadway, Lewisham, etc, and remain with a TOC (whichever one gets the
West Midlands franchise).

I can see it being awkward if it doesn't retain a National Rail ticket
office, and therefore becomes unable to sell the full range of NR
tickets (e.g. it could have a direct service to Milton Keynes or
Birmingham but not be able to sell overnight returns to those places).

And presumably none of the Bakerloo stations would any longer be able
to sell the cheaper season tickets to London Terminals. You'd have to
buy a single to Euston, then queue up and buy your season there,
reclaiming the cost of the single.

Meanwhile, Willesden Junction, which will only be served by London
Underground/Overground, remains with a TOC...

The power of London Travelwatch should not be underestimated in these
matters. They (or their predecessor) lobbied very vigorously over
Stratford and forced the retention of the NR window even though sales to
destinations that the LU system could not handle were miniscule.
Government accepted their views and the NR window had to be provided.

To answer Mizter T's question about the size of Stratford ticket office
I was involved in the design of that. The office is not designed to the
correct LU spec as we were told there was no space to built it properly.
Therefore it was a horrible and disastrous compromise. The need to
surrender a window for NR purposes was not envisaged either nor was the
operational concept around the interchange gateline. The whole place is
a mess (IMO) and I warned that it would not work properly - my views
were overruled. We are now faced with having to create additional
capacity in an (IMO again) unsatisfactory manner and that is before we
face the nightmares associated with the Olympics and the Stratford City
development.

London Travelwatch have exerted similar pressure with respect the NLL
closure south of Stratford and again these conditions have been accepted
by DfT. I am not a betting man but I would fully expect a strong and
well argued position from them in respect of ticketing matters on the
entire NLR Concession as well as at locations that transfer to LU
operating responsibility. I think it will be a very interesting debate -
especially with the development of Oyster inside the zones, changes to
fare structures and the DfT franchise requirements with respect to
ticketing technology on the West Midlands Franchise.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!