In message , at 11:32:59 on Sun, 22
Jul 2007, tim..... remarked:
"Thameslink is going to be approved,"

so that will make it almost 20 years late then

It's been "approved" several times over. All it needs now is funding.

I thought that it had that.

No, finance is not yet approved.

The last thing that stopped it was a Planning refusal.

That did stop it for a while. Now they have planning approval, but still
no finance.
--
Roland Perry

"D7666" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 21, 2:45 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Quote
"Thameslink is going to be approved,"

Is it just me or do the Thameslink announcements always completely miss
the
point? Nearly every statement made seems to include 'between Brighton and
Bedford' whereas the improvements cover a much wider area than the
current
line...

Yes and no.

As I understand it now the aim of TL3000 is still a much wider area,
but the there is a sort of ''step 1'' that involves 12car platforms
and trains at Blackfriars and Farringdon (and hence Moorgate closure)
and selected stations north thereof - but does not for the time being
involve links with the GN route or with further routes south of the
Thames towards the Sussex coast.

I have picked up a lot of vibes over the last week - or rather the
amplitude of the vibes have increased substantially - that FCC/TL are
to gain over the next 2-3 years *both* the existing SN 377/2 and SET
375/6 fleets (15+30=45 units) - with AC activated on the latter -
for this ''step 1''.

Several different cascade scenarios have been suggested, including how
the both those fleets are to be released, but I have no idea which one
might be right, so for now I will refrain from comment. These
scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and
375/6s.

What is known is that dual voltage Electrostars are already cleared
over the existing TL route - and apart from 319s they are the only
type that is so cleared.

Interesting stuff, Nick - thanks.

Presumably the 375/6s are displaced by the Hitachi "Javelin" sets in SET's
fleet, which might also explain why some of the SET 508 fleet is apparently
to be overhauled.

The other question is what happens to Southern's Watford service - transfer
to FCC, or are the extra 12 sets ordered from Bombardier to be dual-voltage?

Can I also be the first to resurrect the "more 442s for Southern" rumour to
indirectly replace the 377/2s? :-)

On 22 Jul, 11:55, "John Tattersall"
wrote:
"D7666" wrote in message

oups.com...





On Jul 21, 2:45 am, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Quote
"Thameslink is going to be approved,"

Is it just me or do the Thameslink announcements always completely miss
the
point? Nearly every statement made seems to include 'between Brighton and
Bedford' whereas the improvements cover a much wider area than the
current
line...

Yes and no.

As I understand it now the aim of TL3000 is still a much wider area,
but the there is a sort of ''step 1'' that involves 12car platforms
and trains at Blackfriars and Farringdon (and hence Moorgate closure)
and selected stations north thereof - but does not for the time being
involve links with the GN route or with further routes south of the
Thames towards the Sussex coast.

I have picked up a lot of vibes over the last week - or rather the
amplitude of the vibes have increased substantially - that FCC/TL are
to gain over the next 2-3 years *both* the existing SN 377/2 and SET
375/6 fleets (15+30=45 units) - with AC activated on the latter -
for this ''step 1''.

Several different cascade scenarios have been suggested, including how
the both those fleets are to be released, but I have no idea which one
might be right, so for now I will refrain from comment. These
scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and
375/6s.

What is known is that dual voltage Electrostars are already cleared
over the existing TL route - and apart from 319s they are the only
type that is so cleared.

Interesting stuff, Nick - thanks.

Presumably the 375/6s are displaced by the Hitachi "Javelin" sets in SET's
fleet, which might also explain why some of the SET 508 fleet is apparently
to be overhauled.

The other question is what happens to Southern's Watford service - transfer
to FCC, or are the extra 12 sets ordered from Bombardier to be dual-voltage?

Can I also be the first to resurrect the "more 442s for Southern" rumour to
indirectly replace the 377/2s? :-)- Hide quoted text -

As I understand it - and wrote in RBI last week (with no follow-up
calls from anyone in the industry to tell me I'm wrong.. so I assume
it's correct) the recently announced order of 377s by/for Southern
will go to FCC. DfT Rail has spotted that there are several 442's
still not claimed under the plans for Gatwick Express / Southern to
merge and has told Southern to use them instead.

(remember in all this Rail Minister Tom Harris repeatedly tells the
press that the DfT doesn't tell TOCs how many trains they can have
etc. etc.)

From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on
the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through
the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but DfT
has still to decide where..
This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are
likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery"
for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the
Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car
diagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which have different
couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be available to
Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and one I'll ask about.

Sources are being a bit vague about detail as, whilst they were told
this was all going ahead by the DfT about three weeks ago they have to
keep quiet about it "officially" until the HLOS is announced etc.

Tony

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 07:52:52 -0700, wrote:

I've not heard any mention of ending the
Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car
diagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which have different
couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be available to
Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and one I'll ask about.

I rather hope that service doesn't get cut - the only thing that would
sensibly substitute for it would be platforms on the slows at
Willesden Jn and it being served by Silverlink County on a reasonable
frequency.

Journeys via London to Clapham can take a half hour or more extra.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 15:14:38 +0000, Neil Williams wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 07:52:52 -0700, wrote:

I've not heard any mention of ending the Southern service to Watford
although with these all being 4-car diagrams releasing some of the sets
with 375s (which have different couplers) would enable a common 377
fleet to be available to Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea
and one I'll ask about.

I rather hope that service doesn't get cut - the only thing that would
sensibly substitute for it would be platforms on the slows at Willesden
Jn and it being served by Silverlink County on a reasonable frequency.

Journeys via London to Clapham can take a half hour or more extra.

Neil

Agree. The Croydon - Clapham - Watford service is very well used,
especially in the peaks. Patronage has really built up since it was
started.

It used to run all the way to Rugby - what would be great and very useful
would be an extension to Birmingham, offering hourly Gatwick - Birmingham
services. It's not going to happen though.

A

On Jul 22, 3:55 am, "John Tattersall"
wrote:

scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and
375/6s.

Presumably the 375/6s are displaced by the Hitachi "Javelin" sets in SET's
fleet, which might also explain why some of the SET 508 fleet is apparently
to be overhauled.

The other question is what happens to Southern's Watford service - transfer
to FCC, or are the extra 12 sets ordered from Bombardier to be dual-voltage?

You are on the right tracks on components parts of some of the
rumours.

However, there were several permutations, none are confirmed, and some
conflict, and I don't want to post any of them yet .

--
Nick

On Jul 22, 7:52 am, wrote:


"D7666" wrote in message
to gain over the next 2-3 years *both* the existing SN 377/2 and SET
375/6 fleets (15+30=45 units) - with AC activated on the latter -
for this ''step 1''.
This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are
likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery"
for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the
Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car

My wording was careful as was my care in not posting the rumour
details.

You are possibly better placed to get official lines than I am - but
all I will say is I never implied '' ending the Southern service to
Watford '' - I only said ''all 377/2s''.

There are other appropriate dual voltage units in the whirlpool of
rumours.

--
Nick

In article . com,
() wrote:

As I understand it - and wrote in RBI last week (with no follow-up
calls from anyone in the industry to tell me I'm wrong.. so I assume
it's correct) the recently announced order of 377s by/for Southern
will go to FCC. DfT Rail has spotted that there are several 442's
still not claimed under the plans for Gatwick Express / Southern to
merge and has told Southern to use them instead.

(remember in all this Rail Minister Tom Harris repeatedly tells the
press that the DfT doesn't tell TOCs how many trains they can have
etc. etc.)

From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on
the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through
the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but
DfT has still to decide where..
This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are
likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery"
for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the
Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car
diagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which have different
couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be available to
Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and one I'll ask
about.

I thought the point of the Southern 377s was to release the remaining
319s to FCC so they have the whole of that fleet?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...

From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on
the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through
the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but
DfT has still to decide where..
This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are
likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery"
for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the
Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car
diagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which have different
couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be available to
Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and one I'll ask
about.

I thought the point of the Southern 377s was to release the remaining
319s to FCC so they have the whole of that fleet?


I think the current buy of 377s is just a means of cascading the remaining
319s to strengthen existing FCC services - and will happen with or without
Thameslink...

Paul

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:36 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

As I understand it - and wrote in RBI last week (with no follow-up
calls from anyone in the industry to tell me I'm wrong.. so I assume
it's correct) the recently announced order of 377s by/for Southern
will go to FCC. DfT Rail has spotted that there are several 442's
still not claimed under the plans for Gatwick Express / Southern to
merge and has told Southern to use them instead.

(remember in all this Rail Minister Tom Harris repeatedly tells the
press that the DfT doesn't tell TOCs how many trains they can have
etc. etc.)

From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on
the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through
the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but
DfT has still to decide where..
This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which are
likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla livery"
for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of ending the
Southern service to Watford although with these all being 4-car
diagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which have different
couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be available to
Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and one I'll ask
about.

I thought the point of the Southern 377s was to release the remaining
319s to FCC so they have the whole of that fleet?

See above... Southern will get extra 442s in place of the 377s.