In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...

From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for
rebuilding on the other side of the station Southeastern will have
to run through the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north
of London, but DfT has still to decide where..
This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which
are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla
livery" for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of
ending the Southern service to Watford although with these all
being 4-car diagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which
have different couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be
available to Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and
one I'll ask about.

I thought the point of the Southern 377s was to release the
remaining 319s to FCC so they have the whole of that fleet?

I think the current buy of 377s is just a means of cascading the
remaining 319s to strengthen existing FCC services - and will
happen with or without Thameslink...

You seem to be confirming what I thought.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:36 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

As I understand it - and wrote in RBI last week (with no
follow-up calls from anyone in the industry to tell me I'm wrong..
so I assume it's correct) the recently announced order of 377s
by/for Southern will go to FCC. DfT Rail has spotted that there
are several 442's still not claimed under the plans for Gatwick
Express / Southern to merge and has told Southern to use them
instead.

(remember in all this Rail Minister Tom Harris repeatedly tells
the press that the DfT doesn't tell TOCs how many trains they can
have etc. etc.)

From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for
rebuilding on the other side of the station Southeastern will have
to run through the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north
of London, but DfT has still to decide where..
This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which
are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla
livery" for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of
ending the Southern service to Watford although with these all
being 4-cardiagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which
have different couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be
available to Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and
one I'll ask about.

I thought the point of the Southern 377s was to release the
remaining 319s to FCC so they have the whole of that fleet?

See above... Southern will get extra 442s in place of the 377s.

But FCC were only asking for the rest of the 319s. At least that what
Elaine Holt has said every time I seen, heard or read her on the subject.

What FCC services will the 377s be for? They won't be able to interwork
with anything else on their routes and presumably they or the 319s will
have to carry coupling adapters.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 21, 7:57 pm, allan tracy
wrote:

Every newspaper, every party and everyone are in favour of more
investment in public transport, it's converting it into action that
matters.
Quote
From The Sunday Times
July 22, 2007
Green light for Thameslink 2000
Dominic O'Connell Sunday Times
TRANSPORT ministers will this week give the go-ahead to the first
phase of the long-delayed Thameslink 2000 project, a scheme that
should boost rail capacity in London in time for the 2012 Olympics.
But in statements on rail policy expected on Tuesday, ministers may
also spark controversy by proposing the deregulation of "saver"
fares,
leading to more expensive journeys for millions of rail passengers.
The first of the two statements will set out spending priorities up
to
2014. The High Level Output Statement is likely to include
Thameslink
2000, some 1,300 new carriages, the redevelopment of Birmingham New
Street and Reading stations, and spending on signalling systems to
bring them up to the latest European standards.

I hope this mean cab signalling. Will we finally see 140mph on the
WCML and ECML?


It is also likely to give guidance on the amount of funding that
will
be provided to Network Rail to run the system over the period.
The second statement, a 30-year vision for the network, is expected
to
dash hopes of a commitment to a new north-south high-speed line.
Ministers are likely to say the plan needs more study to evaluate
the
benefits.

Because 3 previous studies showing 1:3 cost:benefit ratios are
obviously not clear enough.


A Department for Transport source said: "If there were to be such a
thing it would need to prove its worth to ministers both in cost and
environ-mental terms. It would need to make a strong argument."
Nor is there expected to be any commitment to Crossrail, the
east-west
London route, with no announcement expected before the comprehensive
spending review in October.

But only the northern half of the project will be given the
go-ahead,
because it can be completed in time for the Olympics. The decision
will also avoid redevelopment around Borough market and Southwark
cathedral.

Obviously that is a good reason to delay starting on the southern half
by 5 years.

Thameslink 2000 has a key role to play in the Olympic transport plan
because it calls at St Pancras, from which high-speed shuttles will
run to the games village at Stratford.
Plans for 1,000 new carriages have already been announced. The
additional 300 included in this week's statement are understood to
come largely from the extra rolling stock needed for the Thameslink
expansion.
The redevelopment of Birmingham and Reading stations will address
two
bottlenecks on the network. Reading will receive an extra platform,

For Crossrail?

D

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:57 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

As I understand it - and wrote in RBI last week (with no
follow-up calls from anyone in the industry to tell me I'm wrong..
so I assume it's correct) the recently announced order of 377s
by/for Southern will go to FCC. DfT Rail has spotted that there
are several 442's still not claimed under the plans for Gatwick
Express / Southern to merge and has told Southern to use them
instead.

(remember in all this Rail Minister Tom Harris repeatedly tells
the press that the DfT doesn't tell TOCs how many trains they can
have etc. etc.)

From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for
rebuilding on the other side of the station Southeastern will have
to run through the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north
of London, but DfT has still to decide where..
This will require dual voltage trains for the services - which
are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in "plain vanilla
livery" for FCC and Southeastern... I've not heard any mention of
ending the Southern service to Watford although with these all
being 4-cardiagrams releasing some of the sets with 375s (which
have different couplers) would enable a common 377 fleet to be
available to Southeastern/FCC. So it's quite a logical idea and
one I'll ask about.

I thought the point of the Southern 377s was to release the
remaining 319s to FCC so they have the whole of that fleet?

See above... Southern will get extra 442s in place of the 377s.

But FCC were only asking for the rest of the 319s. At least that what
Elaine Holt has said every time I seen, heard or read her on the subject.

What FCC services will the 377s be for? They won't be able to interwork
with anything else on their routes and presumably they or the 319s will
have to carry coupling adapters.

Isn't that also answered in the post quoted above?

"From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on
the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through
the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but DfT
has still to decide where..This will require dual voltage trains for
the services - which are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running in
"plain vanilla livery" for FCC and Southeastern."

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

"From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding
on the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through
the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but
DfT has still to decide where..This will require dual voltage trains
for
the services - which are likely to be the 377s mentioned - running
in "plain vanilla livery" for FCC and Southeastern."

So, just a temporary use then?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Anonymouse wrote:

Agree. The Croydon - Clapham - Watford service is very well used,
especially in the peaks. Patronage has really built up since it was
started.

I seem to recall that Virgin are planning to cut out the Watford Junction
stop for the majority of WCML services. If this happens, I would expect a
sharp decrease in patronage, to the point where this service may as well
be abandoned.

--
John Ray

"John Ray" wrote in message
...
Anonymouse wrote:

Agree. The Croydon - Clapham - Watford service is very well used,
especially in the peaks. Patronage has really built up since it was
started.

I seem to recall that Virgin are planning to cut out the Watford Junction
stop for the majority of WCML services. If this happens, I would expect a
sharp decrease in patronage, to the point where this service may as well
be abandoned.


The DfT have decided, rather than Virgin planning.

However you also have to take into account the various West Midlands
(Silverlink County) services, which will still stop at Watford Junction, so
I don't think the situation is as bleak as you imagine; and presumably with
GoVia being responsible for WM and Southern, there may be better marketing
of the potential through journeys...

Paul

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:49:52 +0100, John Ray
wrote:

I seem to recall that Virgin are planning to cut out the Watford Junction
stop for the majority of WCML services. If this happens, I would expect a
sharp decrease in patronage, to the point where this service may as well
be abandoned.

The former is true, but from experience the latter won't be. Its main
patronage is commuters and other mid-distance travellers connecting
from Silverlink to/from SWT-land, which is also how I use it.

Despite it serving Gatwick (sometimes), you don't see a lot of what
look like air travellers (with luggage) on it, as it's quicker to use
GatEx.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

wrote in message
ups.com...


From the closure of Blackfriars terminal platforms for rebuilding on
the other side of the station Southeastern will have to run through
the Thameslink tunnel to a turn-back station north of London, but DfT
has still to decide where..

There is an interview with Elaine Holt in Rail Professional Aug 07 in which
she states:

"Services from Sevenoaks to Kentish Town, will be First Capital Connect down
to Blackfriars and on from there it will be the same train, the same driver,
but it will be a Southeastern train."

They use the term 'co-chair' in the article, but given Holt's BA background,
perhaps she said 'code-share'?...

Paul

On 22 Jul, 21:12, D7666 wrote:
On Jul 22, 3:55 am, "John Tattersall"
wrote:

scenarios do allow for covering the existing 377/2 duties - and
375/6s.
Presumably the 375/6s are displaced by the Hitachi "Javelin" sets in SET's
fleet, which might also explain why some of the SET 508 fleet is apparently
to be overhauled.

The other question is what happens to Southern's Watford service - transfer
to FCC, or are the extra 12 sets ordered from Bombardier to be dual-voltage?

You are on the right tracks on components parts of some of the
rumours.

However, there were several permutations, none are confirmed, and some
conflict, and I don't want to post any of them yet .

--
Nick

One of the supporting documents for the HLOS mentions the following
permutation which could impact on the requirement for 375/6s.

From page 8 of the NMF/HLOS Evidence Pack - NMF Baseline Timetable
(2009/10):

http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/strategy...mfspecimenhlos

"The following changes were made to the allocation of rolling stock:
* The IKF class 376 fleet was increased by 30 vehicles by increasing
train length from five-car to six-car; and
* Ten additional 3-car class 508s were transferred to Merseyrail from
IKF"

I haven't seen this suggested anywhere else in discussion forums but
would presumably institute a rolling-stock cascade on the IKF
franchise. Why not 36 coaches for 36 376 units and 12 508s then
spare?

Jonathan