Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 12, 10:41 am, MIG wrote:
I am trying to picture where that would be. Somewhere near the
trainspotters platform?

Sorry, I linked to the wrong page:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...rk/index.shtml

The street map on that page shows the route of the viaduct through the
park.

The first two photos here show what the junction looked like from the
branch end, facing the park:
http://overground.doeth.net/heights/


Interesting site, naming it 'overground' could be confusing in the light of
curent developments though...

Paul

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 12:00 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On Aug 12, 10:41 am, MIG wrote:

I am trying to picture where that would be. Somewhere near the
trainspotters platform?

Sorry, I linked to the wrong page:http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...rk/index.shtml

The street map on that page shows the route of the viaduct through the
park.

The first two photos here show what the junction looked like from the
branch end, facing the park:http://overground.doeth.net/heights/

The ECML runs left to right underneath the bridges. Northbound trains
arrive from the ramp on the right, directly from the main ECML
formation. Southbound trains turn left, crossing the whole main line,
then use the viaduct alongside the park to reach FP station.

The Northern Heights plan would have had both lines crossing over,
then extended the viaduct through Station Place (where the fancy new
canopy is today) to join the Northern City without using the ECML.


Thanks. It's interesting that the movements were stopped due to the
condition of the bridge. A similarly arranged flyover bridge was
demolished in Putney due to its condition (although the other track
remains in use). I wonder if a particular design had problems or it
was just down to neglect.

I can talk about the line from Dalston to Finsbury Park with a little extra knowledge as I am a train driver who goes over these lines regularly.

First of all at Dalston there will be a complete remodelling done when the ELL arrives there. It would not be hard for the trains to be able to go to Finsbury Park via Canonbury tunnel when this remodelling is done. I have not seen the plans for the junction, but I suspect that there will be a lead from the ELL towards the number 1 lines at Dalston (the number one lines are the lines with overheads, number 2s have third rail).

On leaving Canonbury tunnel the lines then proceed to Finsbury Park past Drayton Park station (new platforms if ELL extended?). A junction could be put in to allow the trains to run to Finsbury Park over the line which goes to Moorgate. The actual line which now goes to Finsbury Park could become a bi directional line allowing trains to run towards Canonbury.

At Finsbury Park trains to Canonbury could use the platform alongside platform 6 which is currently redundant and trains to Highgate would use platform 6.

From Finsbury Park trains in both directions would then be on the west side of the ECML to the junction where the Parkland walk is at the moment.


So what is required is new points at Dalston, between Drayton Park and Finsbury Park and at the junction of the Parkland walk. There would not be a lot of new signalling required either as the goods line between Finsbury Park and Canonbury is actually already bi directional.

It can be done without disturbing the ECML and with my theory you could also run trains from Highgate to Moorgate via Finsbury Park (I wonder if that would be as quick as the Northern Line?)

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 7:12 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:
First of all at Dalston there will be a complete remodelling done when
the ELL arrives there. It would not be hard for the trains to be able
to go to Finsbury Park via Canonbury tunnel when this remodelling is
done. I have not seen the plans for the junction, but I suspect that
there will be a lead from the ELL towards the number 1 lines at Dalston
(the number one lines are the lines with overheads, number 2s have third
rail).

That's still a flat junction, so I'm not sure it's operationally any
better than crossing all the tracks at the Canonbury end.

The actual line which now goes to Finsbury
Park could become a bi directional line allowing trains to run towards
Canonbury.

The expensive-to-fix bottleneck that would leave you with might be
enough to kill the whole project.

So what is required is new points [...] at the junction of the Parkland walk.

The walk currently ends with a blunt abutment high above the ECML, and
at a fairly sharp angle to it. It requires a lot more than points.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
ups.com...

The expensive-to-fix bottleneck that would leave you with might be
enough to kill the whole project.

So what is required is new points [...] at the junction of the Parkland
walk.

The walk currently ends with a blunt abutment high above the ECML, and
at a fairly sharp angle to it. It requires a lot more than points.


I was having a look at your blog last night, stacks of info there, certainly
easier to look things up than on the LU site!

Have you had a chance to look at the recently published NR South London RUS
at all, quite a lot in there to distil, and some interesting stuff about ELL
Phase 1, and the effect on the existing timetables from NR's perspective.
They seem (to me) to be worried about the fact that whilst they're trying to
get NR services up to 8, 10 or 12 car, the ELLX trains will only provide 4
car replacements, of course they accept that underground stations can't be
extended. Also seem to be suggesting that the WLL Southern services run to
South Croydon for easier turnrounds.

Paul S

But they are going to build a junction there anyway when the ELL comes through!

Quote:

The actual line which now goes to Finsbury Park could become a bi directional line allowing trains to run towards Canonbury.

The only bottle neck will be Canonbury tunnel. I can see that it used to be two lines through there, but I suspect that it would be very hard to convert it back to two lines because it is cleared for Intermodal container traffic. There is a very sharp bend at the NLL end and to make clearance for two trains to pass would be hard I think.

Quote:

So what is required is new points [...] at the junction of the Parkland walk.

That is the one part I did not think very hard about I must admit.

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 10:27 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
I was having a look at your blog last night, stacks of info there, certainly
easier to look things up than on the LU site!

Thanks!

Have you had a chance to look at the recently published NR South London RUS
at all, quite a lot in there to distil, and some interesting stuff about ELL
Phase 1

I had a look last week, but haven't got round to writing anything up,
since none of the suggestions are very concrete.

Also seem to be suggesting that the WLL Southern services run to South Croydon for easier turnrounds.

It's not just Southern - I think they're discussing possible new south
termini for WLL services in general. How these will be paired with
north termini and operators isn't really made explicit.

It looks like last year's 2010 London Overground map is going to be
very off the mark.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 7:12 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:
also run trains from Highgate to Moorgate via Finsbury Park (I wonder if
that would be as quick as the Northern Line?)

Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line - though to be really effective it would have to go
to as far as east finchley as most people probably couldn't be arsed
to climb up at highgate to get to the high level station but just
hopping across the platform at east finchley (especially if they're
likely to get a seat) would be much more attractive.

B2003

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 12, 11:55 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:

But they are going to build a junction there anyway when the ELL comes
through!

Yes, but it's all about conflicts. The ELL service to Highbury won't
conflict with trains on the northern pair at all, and only in one
direction with the southern pair. For a service to Finsbury Park,
trains in both directions would have to cross or run on all four
tracks somewhere.

The only bottle neck will be Canonbury tunnel.

I meant the ECML diveunder south of Finsbury Park station, which I
don't think could be fixed to be double track very easily (I realise
there is a second track already, but it's pretty heavily used by
trains from Moorgate)

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 13, 11:24 am, Boltar wrote:
Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London