Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On 13 Aug, 13:13, Mr Thant
wrote:
Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.


Are you sure about 'equally'? I've always found it far easier to get
on the NCL at Finsbury Park at 0830 than, say, the Northern Line at
Kentish Town at the same time. The full-size trains seems to have a
significantly larger passenger capacity (which would be further
increased if the 2x3 seating were replaced with 2x2 wide-aisle, as in
SWT's 455s).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On Aug 12, 11:55 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:

The only bottle neck will be Canonbury tunnel.

I meant the ECML diveunder south of Finsbury Park station, which I don't
think could be fixed to be double track very easily (I realise there is
a second track already, but it's pretty heavily used by trains from
Moorgate)

?

Okay, are we now talking about terminating the ELL at Finsbury Park, by
reversing out of a bay platform on what is now the Canonbury reversible
line? If so, yes, you're quite right - you'd need to make that diveunder
three-track, or else you have a single-lead approach that stretches all
the way to the NLL. From the air, there looks like there's enough space to
add a third track; are there pillars or something in the way down there?
Failing that, there are a couple of places you could put in passsing
loops: around Drayton Park, and between the diveunder and the station
(exploiting the existing goods track that joins the down Canonbury from
the main line).

Given that there will still be a single-track bit through the tunnel, how
much difference does this really make?

tom

--
a draw was agreed once the pieces started melting

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On Aug 13, 11:24 am, Boltar wrote:

Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

Nah - you also divert everything north of Finsbury Park onto the ELL!

tom

--
a draw was agreed once the pieces started melting

The line could be doubled from inside the tunnel through to Drayton Park (it looks as though it used to be!). It is only the curve at the NLL end which would have to stay single I think. But I am not sure on that. There are a lot of wires inside the tunnel at that end on the curve which I think must be something to do with gauging.
The line towards Finsbury Park is already called the up and down Canonbury as it is already reversible. Therefore up trains (towards NLL) could use this if the down slow 2 was made reversible between the Finsbury Park and the junction onto the Northern Heights line, with the disused platform next to platform 6 at Finsbury Park reopened. Down trains would go onto what is now the down Moorgate.
Trains from Highgate could alternate with trains from the GN going to Moorgate or the NLL.
The main parts of infrastructure required would be between Finsbury Park and Drayton Park, also reopening the disused platform at Finsbury Park. It would just need up trains from Highgate to run up Down slow 2 from the Northern Heights line junction through to the Drayton Park area

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 14:10:59 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:

So what is required is new points [...] at the junction of the Parkland walk.

The walk currently ends with a blunt abutment high above the ECML, and
at a fairly sharp angle to it. It requires a lot more than points.

Sounds well placed for a flyover over the main lines...

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, somersetchris wrote:

Tom Anderson;65118 Wrote:

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On Aug 12, 11:55 pm, somersetchris somersetchris.
wrote:

The only bottle neck will be Canonbury tunnel.

I meant the ECML diveunder south of Finsbury Park station, which I
don't think could be fixed to be double track very easily (I realise
there is a second track already, but it's pretty heavily used by
trains from Moorgate)

Given that there will still be a single-track bit through the tunnel,
how much difference does this really make?

The line could be doubled from inside the tunnel through to Drayton
Park (it looks as though it used to be!).

It did. But didn't someone suggest that it couldn't be redoubled while
also maintaining a freight-suitable loading gauge there? The curve is
quite an important link for freight, so that's rather important.

Perhaps it might be possible to arrange things so that one track is
cleared to W8 (or whatever) and the other only to W6A, signal the W8
reversibly, and just send all freight along that. It could even be
W8-and-only-when-nothing's-on-the-other-track, since it's not a very long
bit.

It is only the curve at the NLL end which would have to stay single I
think. But I am not sure on that.

Don't know. I'd assumed that was once double too, but i really have no
idea.

There are a lot of wires inside the tunnel at that end on the curve
which I think must be something to do with gauging. The line towards
Finsbury Park is already called the up and down Canonbury as it is
already reversible. Therefore up trains (towards NLL) could use this if
the down slow 2 was made reversible between the Finsbury Park and the
junction onto the Northern Heights line, with the disused platform next
to platform 6 at Finsbury Park reopened. Down trains would go onto what
is now the down Moorgate. Trains from Highgate could alternate with
trains from the GN going to Moorgate or the NLL.

Sounds about right. That kind of sharing of bits of line between two
services is asking for trouble, though.

The main parts of infrastructure required would be between Finsbury Park
and Drayton Park, also reopening the disused platform at Finsbury Park.
It would just need up trains from Highgate to run up Down slow 2 from
the Northern Heights line junction through to the Drayton Park area

You still have ELL trains crossing the entire NLL on the flat east of the
Canonbury junction.

tom

--
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Abutments can be dug out

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 13, 1:13 pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On Aug 13, 11:24 am, Boltar wrote:

Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

I was presuming that the line would no longer serve its current
destinations beyond finsbury park.

B2003

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 13, 8:22 pm, Boltar wrote:
Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

I was presuming that the line would no longer serve its current
destinations beyond finsbury park.


and GN pax from north of FP are going to do what exactly? "Sod it, I'm
not going to commute into the City any more, I'll just get a job at
King's Cross instead"?

Any other option entails driving people onto the overcrowded Northern
line, the overcrowded SSL or the overcrowded Thameslink between KX and
the City...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Extend the ELL to Alexandra Palace?
 

On Aug 13, 8:49 pm, John B wrote:
On Aug 13, 8:22 pm, Boltar wrote:

Probably quicker. Plus it would have the added benefit of taking a
large number of passengers off the already way overcrowded northern
bank branch line

And put them on the equally overcrowded at peak times Northern City
line.

I was presuming that the line would no longer serve its current
destinations beyond finsbury park.

and GN pax from north of FP are going to do what exactly? "Sod it, I'm
not going to commute into the City any more, I'll just get a job at
King's Cross instead"?

Perhaps they'd get off at finsbury park and change onto the train from
highgate. Just a wild guess. Anyway , its a theoretical exercise so
who cares.

B2003