Someone showed me this evening TfL's press release of 18 July on the
Piccadilly Line extension to T5, which I had missed when it was issued.
On that day BAA handed over the extension to LU. The press release is at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/5507.aspx

Ken Livingstone is quoted as saying "This is a major milestone in the
delivery of the new Piccadilly Line extension to Heathrow Terminal 5.
From March 2008, passengers will benefit from faster, more frequent
services on the line along with increased capacity."
I assume that by "faster" he means that they will absorb some of the
generous recovery allowances in the current timetable.

But I wonder how he justifies the "more frequent" tag? According to the
press release, trains will run to Heathrow every 5 minutes, as at
present, with alternate trains serving T4 and T5. The T4 trains will
have a layover of 7 minutes at T4, so passengers for T123 should wait
and catch the next T5 train in order to reach T123 more quickly. So
T123 and T5 will effectively have a 6 tph service (every 10 minutes)
westbound, T5 will have 6 tph eastbound, and T123 will have 12 tph
eastbound.

I'm amazed that they think 6 tph will satisfy the demand for journeys to
T123 and T5, compared with 12 tph to T123 today. How on earth is this
"more frequent"? And if it's not more frequent, how can it produce
"increased capacity"?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sep 13, 8:26 pm, "Richard J." wrote:
But I wonder how he justifies the "more frequent" tag? According to the
press release, trains will run to Heathrow every 5 minutes, as at
present, with alternate trains serving T4 and T5. The T4 trains will
have a layover of 7 minutes at T4, so passengers for T123 should wait
and catch the next T5 train in order to reach T123 more quickly. So
T123 and T5 will effectively have a 6 tph service (every 10 minutes)
westbound, T5 will have 6 tph eastbound, and T123 will have 12 tph
eastbound.

I'm amazed that they think 6 tph will satisfy the demand for journeys to
T123 and T5, compared with 12 tph to T123 today. How on earth is this
"more frequent"? And if it's not more frequent, how can it produce
"increased capacity"?

Who knows - the problem here is that PiccEx Junction is incomplete;
there is no direct route for trains from T4 to reach T5 without a main
line reversal east of T123. As a result, T5 will get a permanent crap
service unless T4's service is drastically reduced.

"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk...
Someone showed me this evening TfL's press release of 18 July on the
Piccadilly Line extension to T5, which I had missed when it was issued. On
that day BAA handed over the extension to LU. The press release is at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/5507.aspx

Ken Livingstone is quoted as saying "This is a major milestone in the
delivery of the new Piccadilly Line extension to Heathrow Terminal 5. From
March 2008, passengers will benefit from faster, more frequent services on
the line along with increased capacity."
I assume that by "faster" he means that they will absorb some of the
generous recovery allowances in the current timetable.

But I wonder how he justifies the "more frequent" tag? According to the
press release, trains will run to Heathrow every 5 minutes, as at present,
with alternate trains serving T4 and T5. The T4 trains will have a
layover of 7 minutes at T4, so passengers for T123 should wait and catch
the next T5 train in order to reach T123 more quickly.

Yeah, I can really see that working, Not!

tim

Richard J. wrote:

But I wonder how he justifies the "more frequent" tag? According to
the press release, trains will run to Heathrow every 5 minutes, as at
present, with alternate trains serving T4 and T5. The T4 trains will
have a layover of 7 minutes at T4, so passengers for T123 should wait
and catch the next T5 train in order to reach T123 more quickly. So
T123 and T5 will effectively have a 6 tph service (every 10 minutes)
westbound, T5 will have 6 tph eastbound, and T123 will have 12 tph
eastbound.

I'm amazed that they think 6 tph will satisfy the demand for journeys
to T123 and T5, compared with 12 tph to T123 today. How on earth is
this "more frequent"? And if it's not more frequent, how can it
produce "increased capacity"?

But is the current Heathrow service 12tph? Last I heard, the Picc's 24tph
peak serivce dropped to something like 21tph between the peaks, and half the
trains went to Heathrow.

I'm interested that they will be running a longer line, yet there aren't any
new trains. Are they reducing peak service between Arnos and Cockfosters, or
west of Rayners?

"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk...
Someone showed me this evening TfL's press release of 18 July on the
Piccadilly Line extension to T5, which I had missed when it was issued. On
that day BAA handed over the extension to LU. The press release is at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/5507.aspx

Ken Livingstone is quoted as saying "This is a major milestone in the
delivery of the new Piccadilly Line extension to Heathrow Terminal 5. From
March 2008, passengers will benefit from faster, more frequent services on
the line along with increased capacity."
I assume that by "faster" he means that they will absorb some of the
generous recovery allowances in the current timetable.

But I wonder how he justifies the "more frequent" tag?

The way Ken spins things, he might just mean there are 'faster, more
frequent
services on the line' to T5, compared to the current service to er.. T5

Paul S

"John Rowland" wrote in
message
Richard J. wrote:

But I wonder how he justifies the "more frequent" tag? According to
the press release, trains will run to Heathrow every 5 minutes, as at
present, with alternate trains serving T4 and T5. The T4 trains will
have a layover of 7 minutes at T4, so passengers for T123 should wait
and catch the next T5 train in order to reach T123 more quickly. So
T123 and T5 will effectively have a 6 tph service (every 10 minutes)
westbound, T5 will have 6 tph eastbound, and T123 will have 12 tph
eastbound.

I'm amazed that they think 6 tph will satisfy the demand for journeys
to T123 and T5, compared with 12 tph to T123 today. How on earth is
this "more frequent"? And if it's not more frequent, how can it
produce "increased capacity"?

But is the current Heathrow service 12tph? Last I heard, the Picc's
24tph peak serivce dropped to something like 21tph between the peaks,
and half the trains went to Heathrow.

Surely, more than half the trains go Heathrow? Certainly, much less
than half go to Rayners Lane, so unless a lot are terminating at
Northfields, Heathrow must be getting more than half. If you look at
the journey planner, it looks like it is indeed 12 tph to Heathrow, and
not just in the peaks.

On Sep 14, 1:18 pm, "Recliner" wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote in




Richard J. wrote:

But I wonder how he justifies the "more frequent" tag? According to
the press release, trains will run to Heathrow every 5 minutes, as at
present, with alternate trains serving T4 and T5. The T4 trains will
have a layover of 7 minutes at T4, so passengers for T123 should wait
and catch the next T5 train in order to reach T123 more quickly. So
T123 and T5 will effectively have a 6 tph service (every 10 minutes)
westbound, T5 will have 6 tph eastbound, and T123 will have 12 tph
eastbound.

I'm amazed that they think 6 tph will satisfy the demand for journeys
to T123 and T5, compared with 12 tph to T123 today. How on earth is
this "more frequent"? And if it's not more frequent, how can it
produce "increased capacity"?

But is the current Heathrow service 12tph? Last I heard, the Picc's
24tph peak serivce dropped to something like 21tph between the peaks,
and half the trains went to Heathrow.

Surely, more than half the trains go Heathrow? Certainly, much less
than half go to Rayners Lane, so unless a lot are terminating at
Northfields, Heathrow must be getting more than half. If you look at
the journey planner, it looks like it is indeed 12 tph to Heathrow, and
not just in the peaks.

The Current Off Peak Piccadilly line service is
every 20 mins Cockfosters - Uxbridge
every 20 mins Cockfosters - Rayners Lane
every 5 mins Cockfosters - Heathrow
every 20 mins Arnos Grove - Northfields

In the peak the Northfields trains, more or less run to Ruislip and
there is a 5 minute service, both to Heathrow and Rayner's Lane.

The new timetable starting in January ("Shadow Running" when T5
trains start running, empty from/to T123) I understand will be every
10 minutes to T4 and every 10 minutes to T5, via T123. I think that
the T4 trains will then reverse at Arnos Grove, with no more
Northfield "locals". There shouldnt be a change to the Rayners
Branch.
No doubt someone has the official stuff - if its been done yet!

chunky munky wrote:

The Current Off Peak Piccadilly line service is
every 20 mins Cockfosters - Uxbridge
every 20 mins Cockfosters - Rayners Lane
every 5 mins Cockfosters - Heathrow
every 20 mins Arnos Grove - Northfields

In the peak the Northfields trains, more or less run to Ruislip and
there is a 5 minute service, both to Heathrow and Rayner's Lane.

The new timetable starting in January ("Shadow Running" when T5
trains start running, empty from/to T123) I understand will be every
10 minutes to T4 and every 10 minutes to T5, via T123. I think that
the T4 trains will then reverse at Arnos Grove, with no more
Northfield "locals". There shouldnt be a change to the Rayners
Branch.

That's a drop from 21tph to 18tph through the pipe, and from 18tph to 12tph
at Cockfosters. I suspect you've got something wrong there.

On Sep 14, 5:40 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
chunky munky wrote:

The Current Off Peak Piccadilly line service is
every 20 mins Cockfosters - Uxbridge
every 20 mins Cockfosters - Rayners Lane
every 5 mins Cockfosters - Heathrow
every 20 mins Arnos Grove - Northfields

In the peak the Northfields trains, more or less run to Ruislip and
there is a 5 minute service, both to Heathrow and Rayner's Lane.

The new timetable starting in January ("Shadow Running" when T5
trains start running, empty from/to T123) I understand will be every
10 minutes to T4 and every 10 minutes to T5, via T123. I think that
the T4 trains will then reverse at Arnos Grove, with no more
Northfield "locals". There shouldnt be a change to the Rayners
Branch.

That's a drop from 21tph to 18tph through the pipe, and from 18tph to 12tph
at Cockfosters. I suspect you've got something wrong there.

Something's got to go round at Arnos instead! It might well be the
20min either Uxbridge or Rayners Service. Either way the service is
going to become much more complicated than at present! And probably
more un-reliable if you are after a certain destination.

John Rowland wrote:

I'm interested that they will be running a longer line, yet there
aren't any new trains. Are they reducing peak service between Arnos
and Cockfosters, or west of Rayners?

The direct line to T5 and back adds very little extra distance compared
to the T4 loop. If they need an extra train or two, Tube Lines should be
able to supply that from the existing fleet. They told me some years
ago that this was the intention.

Also, if the press release is right about the service being faster, then
the time saved on the existing journey would help to compensate for the
extra distance and dwell time for the extension to T5.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)