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New DLR station opened today
"cadman" wrote in message ... Nice to see someone placing a station where it is really needed. Some idiot is trying to reopen the railway to Keswick ! What a waste of money. The roads to Keswick are freeflowing and there are buses and taxis. Why a railway ? DOH ! http://money.independent.co.uk/prope...cle3242636.ece |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:32:57 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote: On Dec 12, 1:27 am, "John Rowland" wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: ISTR a map (drawn by J. Rowland?) which put the Wimbleware service in a different shade of green to the rest of the District to make it clear that there were no Richmond - Edgware Road trains. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...wimbleware.gif I have seen a C stock train at Richmond, heading for Edgware Road. It would have been in the middle of the day on a Saturday. Just the one, not an ongoing engineering diversion or anything. I've been on C stock trains from Turnham Green to Acton Town a couple of times at weekends... |
New DLR station opened today
On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote:
This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate in the peaks? -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
New DLR station opened today
"Lew 1" wrote in message ... Incidentally, i noticed the Overground shade of orange seems to be different to the ELL one. I assumed they'd be the same. Oh well, only matters for a couple of weeks now! On a related note, when the ELL line has vanished from the map, will the Overground Network go solid orange, which will eventually then include the ELL? Probably not, because out there somewhere is a statement from TfL that they will leave it as a double line, like the DLR, as it is a similar network of lines, unlike the underground, which has a colour for each individual line. Paul |
New DLR station opened today
On 12 Dec, 10:32, John B wrote: On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate in the peaks? You're making me feel very, very old. But yes, back then the "big Met" terminated at Baker Street, and the "little Met" at Whitechapel, off-peak. The current service pattern only came in after the "little Met" became a line in its own right. (There were some other weird experiments with the sub-surface lines around the same time, such as sending the Olympia trains all the way to Edgware Road. But this was the only one that really stuck.) |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John Rowland wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: ISTR a map (drawn by J. Rowland?) which put the Wimbleware service in a different shade of green to the rest of the District to make it clear that there were no Richmond - Edgware Road trains. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...wimbleware.gif I KNEW IT! tom -- Intensive Erfrischung |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Paul Scott wrote:
"Lew 1" wrote in message ... Incidentally, i noticed the Overground shade of orange seems to be different to the ELL one. I assumed they'd be the same. Oh well, only matters for a couple of weeks now! On a related note, when the ELL line has vanished from the map, will the Overground Network go solid orange, which will eventually then include the ELL? Probably not, because out there somewhere is a statement from TfL that they will leave it as a double line, like the DLR, as it is a similar network of lines, unlike the underground, which has a colour for each individual line. And it's still going to have NR-style frequencies, unlike the tube. tom -- Intensive Erfrischung |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate in the peaks? Er, they still do. Maybe you knew these things. Apologies, my sarcasm detector is broken this morning. tom -- Intensive Erfrischung |
New DLR station opened today
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, cadman wrote:
Nice to see someone placing a station where it is really needed. Some idiot is trying to reopen the railway to Keswick ! What a waste of money. The roads to Keswick are freeflowing and there are buses and taxis. The buses in the Lake District are a bit of a joke. Which is not to say that the train service wouldn't be. Why a railway ? DOH ! It's scenic! tom -- Intensive Erfrischung |
New DLR station opened today
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Paul Scott wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message .li... I take your point. ISTR a map (drawn by J. Rowland?) which put the Wimbleware service in a different shade of green to the rest of the District to make it clear that there were no Richmond - Edgware Road trains. You could do something similar with the Metropolitan. Moreover, the current map suggests you can get a train from Clapham Junction to Stratford via Willesden Junction; you cannot. Bit of a sweeping statement that Tom, there are 3 or 4 services each way to/from CJ shown in the weekday timetables! Well, bugger. Okay, but four trains does not a service make. Thanks to Peter and Paul for the correction, though. tom -- Intensive Erfrischung |
New DLR station opened today
On Dec 12, 12:42 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote: On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. Nope, the H&C runs through to Barking 7 days a week, throughout the day now and has for quite a few years. Of course, that doesn't mean that it does so reliably. And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate in the peaks? Er, they still do. They run both during the peak and the off peak, 7 days a week. Most of the Uxbridge line services run to / from Aldgate and some of the Amersham services also run through to/from Aldgate. In the past, there was only a peak-hour service, but like the H&C line the off-peak Aldgate services have run through for some years. Maybe you knew these things. Apologies, my sarcasm detector is broken this morning. tom -- Intensive Erfrischung |
New DLR station opened today
On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote: On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? No. I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. I don't know about the evenings, but there have been daytime off-peak H&C services beyond Whitechapel for a few years now. And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate in the peaks? Er, they still do. No. Some of them also run through to Aldgate off peak. Maybe you knew these things. Apologies, my sarcasm detector is broken this morning. So is your knowledge of Underground. |
New DLR station opened today
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John Rowland wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: ISTR a map (drawn by J. Rowland?) which put the Wimbleware service in a different shade of green to the rest of the District to make it clear that there were no Richmond - Edgware Road trains. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...wimbleware.gif I KNEW IT! Those little map snippets, thrown together in a couple of hours just to add some colour to my title page ( http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069 ), generated far more interest than the site content ever did. |
New DLR station opened today
On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote:
On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland" wrote: Mizter T wrote: That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess it's worth getting everything right first time round during this closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high standard. But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was already inevitable. Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!). I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works. One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line if it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification would rule out the use of A-stock and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. The new Class 378 units for the line will only start arriving towards the end of 2008 for service in 2009 and I understand that it is the dual voltage units for the North London Line that will be first in service, with the DC only units following. For these to run on the ELL, the depot will need to be ready as well, as there will initially be no connection at Dalston between the North and East London Lines. |
New DLR station opened today
On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote:
This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon- Sat. And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate in the peaks? Er, they still do. No. Met trains run to and from Aldgate all day. Last train ex-Aldgate is the 0011 to Harrow. Maybe you knew these things. Apologies, my sarcasm detector is broken this morning. I couldn't possibly comment on your tube-service-pattern detector ;-) -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
New DLR station opened today
On 12 Dec, 13:17, Andy wrote:
On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote: On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland" wrote: Mizter T wrote: That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess it's worth getting everything right first time round during this closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high standard. But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was already inevitable. Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!). I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works. One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line if it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification would rule out the use of A-stock and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. The new Class 378 units for the line will only start arriving towards the end of 2008 for service in 2009 and I understand that it is the dual voltage units for the North London Line that will be first in service, with the DC only units following. For these to run on the ELL, the depot will need to be ready as well, as there will initially be no connection at Dalston between the North and East London Lines.- Hide quoted text - They could have started the closure later, though! (w.r.t stock I mean - I don't know enough to comment on the engineering/conversion issues) -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
New DLR station opened today
On 12 Dec, 10:59, wrote:
On 12 Dec, 10:32, John B wrote: On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate in the peaks? You're making me feel very, very old. But yes, back then the "big Met" terminated at Baker Street, and the "little Met" at Whitechapel, off-peak. The current service pattern only came in after the "little Met" became a line in its own right. (There were some other weird experiments with the sub-surface lines around the same time, such as sending the Olympia trains all the way to Edgware Road. But this was the only one that really stuck.) I note that there have been some depot changes in relatively recent years, like the Barking sidings now being mainly for C stock and C stock no longer stabling at Neasden (the missing bit of the jigsaw being how is the displaced D stock accommodated). Do these coincide with the all-day Barking service? Or is it more to do with changes at Neasden with the Jubilee extension? Or was that the same time anyway? |
New DLR station opened today
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:21:49 +0000, Tom Anderson
mangled uncounted electrons thus: On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote: On 10 Dec, 19:11, Tom Anderson wrote: Someone remind me - why is the ELL closing for three years? Tis two years - the plan is to have the ELLX open in December 2009 (i.e. when the railway timetables change). Aha. This leaflet, in which, allegedly, "information is correct at time of going to print - November 2007": http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...re-leaflet.pdf says "The East London line will close on 22 December 2007 for major extension work and will reopen by summer 2010 as part of the London Overground network.". Summer 2010 is public works code for winter 2010, from which i calculated three years. But if it only takes two, that's much better. I have thought this too - sure, there are big works to be done (flyover at New Cross Gate, station and bridge at Shoreditch High St, ramp - already half-built - up from Whitechapel, etc etc), but on the face of it they don't need the existing ELL to close... Right. The work connected with the ramp from Whitechapel, perhaps, but Shoreditch High Street is nowhere near the current line, and the NXG flyover surely just involves closing the NXG branch! However I think the plan might involves materials being transported by rail from the Silwood Triangle works site, and perhaps from restored link(s) with the main lines at either New Cross or New Cross Gate or both - of course the latter will have a permanent connection when through ELLX services start running, though perhaps the former is an easier place for works trains to access from the rest of the network. This sounds plausible, but an appallingly bad excuse. I've also heard that there's to be large-scale changes to power and signals to change them to NR standards. Still hard to see how this'll take 2-3 years. On a related note, Liverpool Street is closed for a week over christmas "as a result of major engineering work on the approach lines to the station, in connection with the extension of TfLs East London line". I don't know if that's the ramp or a new track connection or preparatory works or what. grin As LST will be closed for the bridge removal, NR are taking the opportunity of doing a lot of work on the overhead lines in the station and on the immediate approaches. And track and overhead work between Ingatestone and Shenfield. Those of us who commute on the main line are looking worriedly at the three separate sets of works and wondering just how long they'll over-run... Martin D. Pay Who doubts that mainline services will be running normally by 2 January, when we all go back to work... |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:
On Dec 12, 12:42 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote: On 11 Dec, 17:15, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. Nope, the H&C runs through to Barking 7 days a week, throughout the day now and has for quite a few years. Glad to hear it. Paging Clive - if that's true, i think your line guide needs updating. Of course, that doesn't mean that it does so reliably. Wouldn't be the H&C if it was! And did Met trains from the main line really only run through to Aldgate in the peaks? Er, they still do. They run both during the peak and the off peak, 7 days a week. Most of the Uxbridge line services run to / from Aldgate and some of the Amersham services also run through to/from Aldgate. In the past, there was only a peak-hour service, but like the H&C line the off-peak Aldgate services have run through for some years. Aha, i misread that - i thought it was "only to Aldgate", rather than "only in the peaks". tom -- Is this the only way to get through to you? |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:
On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote: On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland" wrote: Mizter T wrote: That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess it's worth getting everything right first time round during this closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high standard. But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was already inevitable. Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!). I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works. One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line if it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification would rule out the use of A-stock Oh, like how LU stock can't run to Richmond or Watford? I can't see why there would be any problem putting in an earth-bonded fourth rail to sustain the service until it becomes fully Overgrounded. and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with doing occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact that the route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and the Dudden Hill branch ... tom -- Is this the only way to get through to you? |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote:
On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon- Sat. Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want to travel into town after nine! tom -- Is this the only way to get through to you? |
New DLR station opened today
On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote: On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon- Sat. Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want to travel into town after nine! tom District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it already is. Dare I suggest that for a Stepney to Finsbury Park journey the new ELLX might be handy - walk to Whitechapel (or get the District or bus if you insist!) then one of the 8 (?) tph that will continue through past Dalston Junction to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury, get off at High & I then the Vic line up to FP. |
New DLR station opened today
On 12 Dec, 18:41, Mizter T wrote:
District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it already is. Most of the H&C reverses at Whitchapel, so you should be OK just waiting at Aldgate East for one of those. Also, the "next train to Baker St" indicator at Aldgate doesn't seem to work until the last minute, so catching a northbound train is a nightmare. Dare I suggest that for a Stepney to Finsbury Park journey the new ELLX might be handy - walk to Whitechapel (or get the District or bus if you insist!) then one of the 8 (?) tph that will continue through past Dalston Junction to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury, get off at High & I then the Vic line up to FP. Last we heard it was 4, but the proposed track design has changed so it has dedicated track all the way to H&I, so it's possible they all could. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
New DLR station opened today
"Mizter T" wrote District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it already is. It's never been advertised as an interchange, and isn't needed as one. Passengers for the H&C from east of Barking (or east of Whitechapel Sundays and late evenings when the H&C doesn't run east of Whitechapel) have a same platform interchange at Aldgate East. Peter |
New DLR station opened today
"Mizter T" wrote in message
... On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote: On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon- Sat. Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want to travel into town after nine! District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it already is. I think you're mixed up between Aldgate and Aldgate East? Isn't it Circle and Met at Aldgate, and District (+ H&C) at Aldgate East? -- David Biddulph |
New DLR station opened today
On Dec 12, 6:21 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote: On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote: On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland" wrote: Mizter T wrote: That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess it's worth getting everything right first time round during this closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high standard. But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was already inevitable. Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!). I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works. One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line if it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification would rule out the use of A-stock Oh, like how LU stock can't run to Richmond or Watford? I can't see why there would be any problem putting in an earth-bonded fourth rail to sustain the service until it becomes fully Overgrounded. Probably quite doable, but how do the trains get onto the line? and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with doing occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact that the route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and the Dudden Hill branch ... And where would the connection onto National Rail be? At the northern end, the ELL will only run to Dalston, until the NLL is reconfigured for the 2011 extension of services to Highbury & Islington. At the southern end, there will be no connections until the flying junction at New Cross Gate is installed (the work for this is planned to start in May 2008, but that's just the bridge installation). The St. Mary's curve to the District / Hammersmith & City lines is due to be taken out early next year and so the line will be 'on its own' with no connections to NR or LUL for a long time. Remember that there is a long lead-time on NR signalling works and I would imagine that the dates for the connection at New Cross Gate will rely on when signalling resources are available. I'm sure plans could have been made, but also remember that the new sub-surface (S-) stock will be being delivered about the same time (2009) and so the Met might want a couple of A-stock trains in reserve in case of problems dealing with two different designs at the same time. |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:21:33 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote: On Dec 11, 3:37 am, Mizter T wrote: On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland" wrote: Mizter T wrote: That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess it's worth getting everything right first time round during this closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high standard. But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was already inevitable. Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!). I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works. One other point to consider is what stock would be operating the line if it reopened in 9 months (for example) time? Don't forget that the conversion to National Rail standards with 3rd rail electrification would rule out the use of A-stock Oh, like how LU stock can't run to Richmond or Watford? I can't see why there would be any problem putting in an earth-bonded fourth rail to sustain the service until it becomes fully Overgrounded. It isn't done with an earth-bonded fourth rail, the fourth rail is bonded to the traction current return rail which under particular conditions (e.g. dry weather and train pulling many amps at the far end from the substation) can be a number of volts away from earth requiring the signalling circuits to be designed to match (the substation end was IIRC described in a previous thread by someone with the relevant experience). Returning to A stock, if it is working in isolation then it might be easier to do a Sarah Siddons-style temporary conversion to 3rd-rail. and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. Rubber-wheeled stock transfer ? I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with doing occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact that the route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and the Dudden Hill branch ... |
New DLR station opened today
And it's still going to have NR-style frequencies, unlike the tube.
Surely that's only in the short-term though? I understood that the aim was to create mass transit systems out of them, ala the current Underground frequency. I may be wrong. Best Wishes, LEWIS |
New DLR station opened today
"Lew 1" wrote in message ... And it's still going to have NR-style frequencies, unlike the tube. Surely that's only in the short-term though? I understood that the aim was to create mass transit systems out of them, ala the current Underground frequency. I may be wrong. Achieving mass transit frequencies on a heavy rail route (say 24tph) is the sort of thing provided by Crossrail or Thameslink, at a cost of £billions. The Overground is a much more modest affair You will only ever see NLL & WLL frequency increasing incrementally, up to 4, 6 or maybe 8 tph over overlapping sections of the line, because it is also a goods line. When Ken talks about 'metro style frequencies' he seems to mean better than 4 tph, which is when it is considered (by many) that you don't need to worry about the timetable. The ELLX plans are initially based on 12 tph through the tunnel, and that is limited to 8tph south of New Cross Gate, because it is then integrated with the main lines towards Croydon/Crystal Palace. Paul S |
New DLR station opened today
On 13 Dec, 10:13, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Lew 1" wrote in message ... And it's still going to have NR-style frequencies, unlike the tube. Surely that's only in the short-term though? I understood that the aim was to create mass transit systems out of them, ala the current Underground frequency. I may be wrong. Achieving mass transit frequencies on a heavy rail route (say 24tph) is the sort of thing provided by Crossrail or Thameslink, at a cost of £billions. The Overground is a much more modest affair You will only ever see NLL & WLL frequency increasing incrementally, up to 4, 6 or maybe 8 tph over overlapping sections of the line, because it is also a goods line. When Ken talks about 'metro style frequencies' he seems to mean better than 4 tph, which is when it is considered (by many) that you don't need to worry about the timetable. The ELLX plans are initially based on 12 tph through the tunnel, and that is limited to 8tph south of New Cross Gate, because it is then integrated with the main lines towards Croydon/Crystal Palace. Paul S According to Connex (remember Connex Metro?) a station that had four trains an hour leaving from the same end, to four different branches, during the day Monday to Friday (but one or none per hour evenings and Sundays) was a Metro station. I hope we aren't going to get similarly nonsensical claims with Overground. |
New DLR station opened today
"Paul Scott" wrote You will only ever see NLL & WLL frequency increasing incrementally, up to 4, 6 or maybe 8 tph over overlapping sections of the line, because it is also a goods line. When Ken talks about 'metro style frequencies' he seems to mean better than 4 tph, which is when it is considered (by many) that you don't need to worry about the timetable. The ELLX plans are initially based on 12 tph through the tunnel, and that is limited to 8tph south of New Cross Gate, because it is then integrated with the main lines towards Croydon/Crystal Palace. Current ELL proposals are 4tph from each of New Cross, Crystal Palace, and West Croydon, combining to 12 tph between Surrey Quays and Dalston Junction, though only 4 tph on to Highbury & Islington. Phase 2 would add 4 tph from Clapham Junction via the South London Line. Peter |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote: On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon- Sat. Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want to travel into town after nine! District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it already is. I used to go via Tower Hill, which was probably not very clever. Or get the bus - once one actually came along, it was a single seat all the way home on the lovely 254. Thinking about it, walking Aldgate East to Liverpool Street would probably have been the best bet. Dare I suggest that for a Stepney to Finsbury Park journey the new ELLX might be handy If you like - although i lived in Clapton at the time! - walk to Whitechapel (or get the District or bus if you insist!) then one of the 8 (?) tph that will continue through past Dalston Junction to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury, get off at High & I then the Vic line up to FP. Fair enough. Not a lot of TPH, though; but then the H&C to KX isn't much better. tom -- [of Mulholland Drive] Cancer is pretty ingenious too, but its best to avoid. -- Tex |
New DLR station opened today
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Paul Scott wrote:
"Lew 1" wrote in message ... And it's still going to have NR-style frequencies, unlike the tube. Surely that's only in the short-term though? I understood that the aim was to create mass transit systems out of them, ala the current Underground frequency. I may be wrong. Achieving mass transit frequencies on a heavy rail route (say 24tph) is the sort of thing provided by Crossrail or Thameslink, at a cost of £billions. The Overground is a much more modest affair Is there anything technical about the Overground that prohibits that sort of frequency, in terms of rails and whatever? I thought it was just that the demand does't (yet) justify spending money to achieve it. Plus, the need for freight paths and working in with other NR services down south. tom -- [of Mulholland Drive] Cancer is pretty ingenious too, but its best to avoid. -- Tex |
New DLR station opened today
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote:
On Dec 12, 6:21 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote: and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with doing occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact that the route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and the Dudden Hill branch ... And where would the connection onto National Rail be? At New Cross or New Cross Gate. At the northern end, the ELL will only run to Dalston, until the NLL is reconfigured for the 2011 extension of services to Highbury & Islington. At the southern end, there will be no connections until the flying junction at New Cross Gate is installed (the work for this is planned to start in May 2008, but that's just the bridge installation). Ah, okay. I didn't realise that either! Also, i have no idea if A stock would be in gauge for any route across south London. There are freight routes there, so plenty of height, but A stock is wide, so it might fit through. The St. Mary's curve to the District / Hammersmith & City lines is due to be taken out early next year and so the line will be 'on its own' with no connections to NR or LUL for a long time. Why is this link being removed? Are platforms being extended over it or something? tom -- [of Mulholland Drive] Cancer is pretty ingenious too, but its best to avoid. -- Tex |
New DLR station opened today
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message h.li... On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote: On Dec 12, 6:21 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote: and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. I hadn't realised that was happening. Is there a huge problem with doing occasional stock transfers over NR lines? Apart from the fact that the route would via Clapham Junction, some maneuvers out West, and the Dudden Hill branch ... And where would the connection onto National Rail be? At New Cross or New Cross Gate. At the northern end, the ELL will only run to Dalston, until the NLL is reconfigured for the 2011 extension of services to Highbury & Islington. At the southern end, there will be no connections until the flying junction at New Cross Gate is installed (the work for this is planned to start in May 2008, but that's just the bridge installation). Ah, okay. I didn't realise that either! Also, i have no idea if A stock would be in gauge for any route across south London. There are freight routes there, so plenty of height, but A stock is wide, so it might fit through. The St. Mary's curve to the District / Hammersmith & City lines is due to be taken out early next year and so the line will be 'on its own' with no connections to NR or LUL for a long time. Why is this link being removed? Are platforms being extended over it or something? Its only purpose is for ELL trains to get back to their main depot - Neasden is it? Once the ELL is rebuilt for main line spec trains, they will have no requirement to enter the LU system, indeed they are probably out of gauge for length anyway. The power supply and signalling systems at either side of the curve will be incompatible, so the track connection would appear irrelevant and unnecessary. Paul S |
New DLR station opened today
Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote: On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote: On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon- Sat. Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want to travel into town after nine! District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it already is. I used to go via Tower Hill, which was probably not very clever. Or get the bus - once one actually came along, it was a single seat all the way home on the lovely 254. I was going to suggest a spot of bus hopping, but I suspect that once you'd got as far as Clapton station on the 106 it just becomes easier to walk the last stretch back to Upper Clapton (presuming that's where you were at the time!). Thinking about it, walking Aldgate East to Liverpool Street would probably have been the best bet. Well, if you were going home by train I dare say that going from Bethnal Green (overground) station might have been a decent option - all the Clapton-bound trains normally call there. Dare I suggest that for a Stepney to Finsbury Park journey the new ELLX might be handy If you like - although i lived in Clapton at the time! - walk to Whitechapel (or get the District or bus if you insist!) then one of the 8 (?) tph that will continue through past Dalston Junction to Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury, get off at High & I then the Vic line up to FP. Fair enough. Not a lot of TPH, though; but then the H&C to KX isn't much better. Well, 8tph is a lot in my books! But perhaps you've read elsewhere in this thread where others have stated that the plan is/was for just 4tph - though it seems this might change given that the new track layout on the NLL has been confirmed since then (though I haven't really got my head round that yet). The more ELLX trains running through to Highbury & Islington the better, though I'm quite sure the planners at TfL London Rail know that very well already! |
New DLR station opened today
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Paul Scott wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message h.li... On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote: On Dec 12, 6:21 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andy wrote: and there would be no connection back onto the LUL system for major servicing anyway. The St. Mary's curve to the District / Hammersmith & City lines is due to be taken out early next year and so the line will be 'on its own' with no connections to NR or LUL for a long time. Why is this link being removed? Are platforms being extended over it or something? Its only purpose is for ELL trains to get back to their main depot - Neasden is it? Once the ELL is rebuilt for main line spec trains, they will have no requirement to enter the LU system, indeed they are probably out of gauge for length anyway. The power supply and signalling systems at either side of the curve will be incompatible, so the track connection would appear irrelevant and unnecessary. I smell circular reasoning! Why can't the ELL going to use A stock? Because St Mary's curve is being taken out. Why is St Mary's curve being taken out? Because the ELL isn't going to use A stock! If the curve was left in, and other provisions made for continuing to run tube trains, the line could reopen soon and carry on running as before until the extensions are ready, at which point it could go over to NR operation. Yes, this would be more difficult and expensive than the current plan, but it would also mean that an entire line didn't have to close for three years! Apart from having a fourth rail, what would need to be done to make the line tube-friendly? I imagine NR signals would be fine, you'd just have to train drivers to read those instead of LU signals (do they do this already towards Richmond and Amersham?). What's the situation with platform height? tom -- Any Christmas message which ends with "... everything's pointless ...." probably doesn't need sharing -- cleanskies |
New DLR station opened today
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote: On 12 Dec, 18:23, Tom Anderson wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, John B wrote: On 12 Dec, 12:42, Tom Anderson wrote: This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html Wow - was the H&C (or Met, in those days) past Whitechapel really once peak-hours only? It still is, isn't it? I have a friend who lived in Stepney a few years ago, and getting home from hers was a nightmare in the evenings for exactly that reason. No. It's Whitechapel-only on late evenings (last train ex-Barking is the 2051) and Sundays, but runs to Barking for the rest of the day Mon- Sat. Ah, so it's still not all day every day to Barking. More than just in the peaks, granted, but it's still an annoying pattern. Some people still want to travel into town after nine! District to Aldgate, exit and walk to Aldgate East for the Circle or Met lines would be one way to deal with it - is Aldgate and Aldgate East an outerchange I wonder, coz it should be if it ain't though I bet it already is. I used to go via Tower Hill, which was probably not very clever. Or get the bus - once one actually came along, it was a single seat all the way home on the lovely 254. I was going to suggest a spot of bus hopping, but I suspect that once you'd got as far as Clapton station on the 106 it just becomes easier to walk the last stretch back to Upper Clapton (presuming that's where you were at the time!). No, i actually lived just behind the station. Thinking about it, walking Aldgate East to Liverpool Street would probably have been the best bet. Well, if you were going home by train I dare say that going from Bethnal Green (overground) station might have been a decent option - all the Clapton-bound trains normally call there. Yes, that would have been quite sensible. I never did it, though - i think i was just mentally wedded to the idea of Liverpool Street. tom -- Any Christmas message which ends with "... everything's pointless ...." probably doesn't need sharing -- cleanskies |
New DLR station opened today
Tom Anderson wrote: (snip) I smell circular reasoning! Why can't the ELL going to use A stock? Because St Mary's curve is being taken out. Why is St Mary's curve being taken out? Because the ELL isn't going to use A stock! (snip) I haven't been following the rest of the discussion, however I saw the above comments and will just add that I thought St. Mary's curve was staying in. |
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