Mizter T wrote:

That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's
transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess
it's worth getting everything right first time round during this
closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high
standard.

But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not
long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was
already inevitable.

In article
,
(Mr Thant) wrote:

Demolishing the enormous brick viaduct over the Great Eastern Main
Line on the east side of Brick Lane. It's in the way of the ELL's
own
bridge over the line. Apparently it weighs 12,000 tonnes:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/6798.aspx

Mostly brickwork, though. "Demolition of the current bridge means
removing some 12,000 tonnes of brickwork."

That'll mainly be in the surrounding Bishopsgate Goods approach viaducts.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Richard J. wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

Incidentally, i noticed the Overground shade of orange seems to be
different to the ELL one. I assumed they'd be the same. Oh well, only
matters for a couple of weeks now!

They are indeed different according to the TfL Colour Standard at
http://tinyurl.com/32y8t2

ELL: Underground orange
NCS S 0585-Y30R; RGB 236,158,0; Web FF 99 00

LO: Overground orange
NCS S 0585-Y50R; RGB 232,106,16; Web FF 66 00.

Which look like this:

http://urchin.earth.li/~twic/Overgro...nd_Orange.html

I think the overground shade is better - that bit harder to confuse with
Circle yellow.

'Underground orange' sounds like something you'd find in Glasgow!

tom

--
.... to build a space elevator, that's got to be hundreds of thousands
of pounds ... -- Mike Froggatt

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Dec, 19:11, Tom Anderson wrote:

Someone remind me - why is the ELL closing for three years?

Tis two years - the plan is to have the ELLX open in December 2009
(i.e. when the railway timetables change).

Aha. This leaflet, in which, allegedly, "information is correct at time of
going to print - November 2007":

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...re-leaflet.pdf

says "The East London line will close on 22 December 2007 for major
extension work and will reopen by summer 2010 as part of the London
Overground network.". Summer 2010 is public works code for winter 2010,
from which i calculated three years. But if it only takes two, that's much
better.

Errm, I'm not sure where I picked up December 2009 from - as the LU
"Track closures Six Month Look Ahead" PDF agrees with you in saying
June 2010 (in fact it specifically says Wed 30 Jun 10 - not sure that
can be right though):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/livetra...k-closures.pdf

So two and a half years. I'm not sure that the public works code will
apply to this tightly managed TfL-run project, we shall see!

We should completely have a bet.

On a related note, Liverpool Street is closed for a week over christmas
"as a result of major engineering work on the approach lines to the
station, in connection with the extension of TfLs East London line". I
don't know if that's the ramp or a new track connection or preparatory
works or what.

Removal of Bridge GE19, which needs to go so it can be replaced by a
new bridge to carry the ELLX over the Liverpool Street lines, which
will itself be put in place in spring 2008 (I suspect that'll be a
simpler operation than the removal of the old bridge).

I think bridge GE19 isn't on the right alignment. See two of U Thant's
helpful weblog entries:

http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...-route-at.html
http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...idge-date.html

Ah, those are helpful. I hadn't realised how much work was being done
here - several streets being chopped and changed! There appears to a block
of flats on Pedley St that will be completely cut off by the severing of
the bridges; i think i'd be a bit miffed if i lived there. I assume nobody
does!

It's a bit of a shame they couldn't reuse the existing bridge for the ELL
route - it looks like it's in the right place; maybe it's not at the right
height. It's not particularly gorgeous, but it's historical. Still, i
suppose our generation has to bequeath its share of drab works of
engineering to the future too.

There seem to be no pictures of bridge GE19 on the web. That google images
can find, anyway. Even on flickr! Something to do on saturday ...

tom

--
.... to build a space elevator, that's got to be hundreds of thousands
of pounds ... -- Mike Froggatt

On 11 Dec, 00:01, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

That said, it will become a far more critical bit of London's
transport infrastructure when it becomes part of the ELLX, so I guess
it's worth getting everything right first time round during this
closure and making sure all the works are done to a very high
standard.

But this isn't first time around! The ELL was closed for three years not
long ago, when conversion to third rail and use of NR rolling stock etc was
already inevitable.


Yes, I was aware of that though I didn't mention it. One would think
that any major remedial works were done then - the Thames Tunnel was
certainly 'dealt with', though the shotcrete treatment wasn't to the
liking of conservationists, which is of course why the line was closed
for so much longer than originally anticipated (and of course you know
this all already, but I'm just setting the scene for the audience!).

I'd be most interested in seeing a break-down of the works.

On Dec 10, 11:48 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Is there a good reason for them to be different? Won't various signs and
conduit friezes have to be replaced as a result of the colour change which
could otherwise have been left alone?

My guess is that they wanted something sufficiently different to
indicate different services, but sufficiently similar to merge them at
a later date.

PhilD

--

On Dec 11, 8:31 am, PhilD wrote:
On Dec 10, 11:48 pm, "John Rowland"

wrote:
Is there a good reason for them to be different? Won't various signs and
conduit friezes have to be replaced as a result of the colour change which
could otherwise have been left alone?

My guess is that they wanted something sufficiently different to
indicate different services, but sufficiently similar to merge them at
a later date.


I think there's a case for keeping them seperate. The use of shades of
orange suggests they're part of the same network, but it would ensure
that noone would believe they can get a direct train from, say, New
Cross to Hampstead Heath.

Jonn

Richard J. wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:
Incidentally, i noticed the Overground shade of orange seems to be
different to the ELL one. I assumed they'd be the same. Oh well, only
matters for a couple of weeks now!

They are indeed different according to the TfL Colour Standard at
http://tinyurl.com/32y8t2

ELL: Underground orange
NCS S 0585-Y30R; RGB 236,158,0; Web FF 99 00

LO: Overground orange
NCS S 0585-Y50R; RGB 232,106,16; Web FF 66 00.


How do these compare with the colour that was once used to show BR
services on underground maps in the dim and distant past. I recall
having a fold out beck map from about 1989 (the DLR was there, with the
Beckton line shown as "under construction", that should date it), it had
the GNC, W&C and Thameslink core in orange-outline. Not long after, the
BR services changed to thin black outline. All of this is subject to
several years of possibly faulty memory.

Robin

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Dec, 19:11, Tom Anderson wrote:

Someone remind me - why is the ELL closing for three years?


On a related note, Liverpool Street is closed for a week over christmas
"as a result of major engineering work on the approach lines to the
station, in connection with the extension of TfLs East London line". I
don't know if that's the ramp or a new track connection or preparatory
works or what.

Removal of Bridge GE19, which needs to go so it can be replaced by a
new bridge to carry the ELLX over the Liverpool Street lines, which
will itself be put in place in spring 2008 (I suspect that'll be a
simpler operation than the removal of the old bridge).

I think bridge GE19 isn't on the right alignment. See two of U Thant's
helpful weblog entries:

http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...-route-at.html
http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...idge-date.html

Ah, those are helpful. I hadn't realised how much work was being done
here - several streets being chopped and changed! There appears to a block
of flats on Pedley St that will be completely cut off by the severing of
the bridges; i think i'd be a bit miffed if i lived there. I assume nobody
does!


I shall have to get down there and investigate. Need a couple of pics of
'my' road anyway! Could go to Langdon Park DLR too.
Last I saw the flats were fully occupied and the pics on Google Earth show
the old trackbed as having been filled in. Shouldn't be too hard to keep at
least one bridge open for access or provide a temporary crossing.

Nick



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, R.C. Payne wrote:

Richard J. wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:
Incidentally, i noticed the Overground shade of orange seems to be
different to the ELL one. I assumed they'd be the same. Oh well, only
matters for a couple of weeks now!

They are indeed different according to the TfL Colour Standard at
http://tinyurl.com/32y8t2

ELL: Underground orange
NCS S 0585-Y30R; RGB 236,158,0; Web FF 99 00

LO: Overground orange
NCS S 0585-Y50R; RGB 232,106,16; Web FF 66 00.

How do these compare with the colour that was once used to show BR
services on underground maps in the dim and distant past. I recall
having a fold out beck map from about 1989 (the DLR was there, with the
Beckton line shown as "under construction", that should date it), it had
the GNC, W&C and Thameslink core in orange-outline.

This map has the W&C and GN&C in solid orange:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1986.html

But no sign of Thameslink, but then that map is from '86, three years
before it reopened. The next map in Mr Billson's collection is '95:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1995.htm

At which point the NR lines are in the familiar outline form, and the W&C
is a tube line.

This slightly earlier map is interesting:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/1974.html

The W&C is shown in the same form as modern NR lines, a thin outline; it
was an NR line at the time, so i suppose this is an antecedent of the
modern style. What's more interesting is the way the ELL and GN&C are
drawn - not like tube lines, but like a heavier version of the modern NR
line, as used on the High Frequency Services map, although coloured. In
both those cases, the colouring and layout of the key treats them as
junior relations of the Metropolitan and Northern lines respectively,
which is indeed how they were run, but which seems strange to modern eyes
(to mine, at least!).

When the GN&CR was part of the Northern line, was there ever a plan to
link them up at Old Street or Moorgate? They run one on top of the other,
so it would have been fairly simple, and would have made the GN&CR a
proper part of the Northern.

tom

--
That's no moon!