On Feb 13, 11:12 pm, wrote:
Why on the Piccadilly as it does not come into contact with National Rail
trains?

"chunky munky" wrote in message

...



Slightly changing the subject, LT drivers alsomo have to know how to read
national rail signals as well, don't they?

Yes. On the Bakerloo and District lines.

Control staff on the District, Piccadilly, Metropolitan and Circle
lines also need to know too.

I should have mentioned that the signal operators west of Tower Hill
are Piccadilly line ones.

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:04:19 GMT, wrote:

I can't remember what kind is at Gunnersbury etc, but on the
Bakerloo shared sections, I think the markers are NR style.

For both the Underground and Overground, right?

The Overground has "3 car stop" and "6 car stop" signs (or "S car
stop" at some stations instead),

I thought the "S car stop" was what they used for both on the
District, though I could be wrong.

though 6 car trains never run (and it
may not even be possible).

Why would it not be possible?

The power supply may not be able to cope with the current drawn by a
6-car 313 accelerating.

How do they cope with 6-car 313 trains on the GN then?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Feb 13, 11:56*pm, asdf wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:04:19 GMT, wrote:
I can't remember what kind is at Gunnersbury etc, but on the Bakerloo
shared sections, I think the markers are NR style.

For both the Underground and Overground, right?

The Overground has "3 car stop" and "6 car stop" signs (or "S car
stop" at some stations instead),

I thought the "S car stop" was what they used for both on the District,
though I could be wrong.

though 6 car trains never run (and it
may not even be possible).

Why would it not be possible?

The power supply may not be able to cope with the current drawn by a
6-car 313 accelerating.

In the past, there have been 6-car 313s on the Euston - Watford DC
lines. I can certainly recall them being used at weekends when there
were blockades on the WCML, although not recently.

In article
,
(Andy) wrote:

On Feb 13, 11:56*pm, asdf wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:04:19 GMT, wrote:
I can't remember what kind is at Gunnersbury etc, but on the
Bakerloo shared sections, I think the markers are NR style.

For both the Underground and Overground, right?

The Overground has "3 car stop" and "6 car stop" signs (or "S
car stop" at some stations instead),

I thought the "S car stop" was what they used for both on the
District, though I could be wrong.

though 6 car trains never run (and it
may not even be possible).

Why would it not be possible?

The power supply may not be able to cope with the current drawn
by a 6-car 313 accelerating.

In the past, there have been 6-car 313s on the Euston - Watford DC
lines. I can certainly recall them being used at weekends when there
were blockades on the WCML, although not recently.

As I said, there are plenty of 6-car 313 trains on the line they were
delivered for, the GN.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Colin Rosenstiel
wrote:

I can't remember what kind is at Gunnersbury etc, but on the
Bakerloo shared sections, I think the markers are NR style.

For both the Underground and Overground, right?

The Overground has "3 car stop" and "6 car stop" signs (or "S car
stop" at some stations instead),

I thought the "S car stop" was what they used for both on the
District, though I could be wrong.

though 6 car trains never run (and it
may not even be possible).

Why would it not be possible?

The power supply may not be able to cope with the current drawn by a
6-car 313 accelerating.

How do they cope with 6-car 313 trains on the GN then?

The power supply on the GN can cope with them. The power supply on the
DC lines can't (according to a recent thread).

On Feb 14, 11:48*pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article
,



(Andy) wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:56*pm, asdf wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:04:19 GMT, wrote:
I can't remember what kind is at Gunnersbury etc, but on the
Bakerloo shared sections, I think the markers are NR style.

For both the Underground and Overground, right?

The Overground has "3 car stop" and "6 car stop" signs (or "S
car stop" at some stations instead),

I thought the "S car stop" was what they used for both on the
District, though I could be wrong.

though 6 car trains never run (and it
may not even be possible).

Why would it not be possible?

The power supply may not be able to cope with the current drawn
by a 6-car 313 accelerating.

In the past, there have been 6-car 313s on the Euston - Watford DC
lines. I can certainly recall them being used at weekends when there
were blockades on the WCML, although not recently.

As I said, there are plenty of 6-car 313 trains on the line they were
delivered for, the GN.


Ahh, but the electrification of the GN line was designed for 6-car 313
formations. The Euston DC lines electrification was designed for the
mix of Bakerloo and mainline stock. The previous generation of units
(Class 313) only had one motor coach with 4 x 185 hp motors (according
to my old Combined Volume) whilst the class 313s have two motor
coaches with 4 x 110 hp motors (from the same source). So a single 501
had a power rating of 740hp, whilst a single 313 has 880hp. This is
nearly 20% more power and 50 % more motors. The potential problem on
the DC line wasn't the length of the train, but whether the power
supply could deal with the higher current drawn by a 6 car 313
(especially on starting) compared to a 6 car 501 in days gone by.

NB, I know that hp is hard to relate directly to the current drawn by
the unit, but the comparison still shows the potential problem.

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Colin Rosenstiel
wrote:

I can't remember what kind is at Gunnersbury etc, but on the
Bakerloo shared sections, I think the markers are NR style.

For both the Underground and Overground, right?

The Overground has "3 car stop" and "6 car stop" signs (or "S car
stop" at some stations instead),

I thought the "S car stop" was what they used for both on the
District, though I could be wrong.

though 6 car trains never run (and it
may not even be possible).

Why would it not be possible?

The power supply may not be able to cope with the current drawn
by a 6-car 313 accelerating.

How do they cope with 6-car 313 trains on the GN then?

The power supply on the GN can cope with them. The power supply on
the DC lines can't (according to a recent thread).

But the GN has DC lines from Drayton Park to Moorgate. The trains are
limited to 30 MPH (series only) but I thought that was because of the
tunnels, not the power supply.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article
,
(Andy) wrote:

On Feb 14, 11:48*pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article

,

(Andy) wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:56*pm, asdf wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:04:19 GMT, wrote:
I can't remember what kind is at Gunnersbury etc, but on the
Bakerloo shared sections, I think the markers are NR style.

For both the Underground and Overground, right?

The Overground has "3 car stop" and "6 car stop" signs (or "S
car stop" at some stations instead),

I thought the "S car stop" was what they used for both on the
District, though I could be wrong.

though 6 car trains never run (and it
may not even be possible).

Why would it not be possible?

The power supply may not be able to cope with the current drawn
by a 6-car 313 accelerating.

In the past, there have been 6-car 313s on the Euston - Watford DC
lines. I can certainly recall them being used at weekends when
there
were blockades on the WCML, although not recently.

As I said, there are plenty of 6-car 313 trains on the line they were
delivered for, the GN.

Ahh, but the electrification of the GN line was designed for 6-car 313
formations. The Euston DC lines electrification was designed for the
mix of Bakerloo and mainline stock. The previous generation of units
(Class 313) only had one motor coach with 4 x 185 hp motors (according
to my old Combined Volume) whilst the class 313s have two motor
coaches with 4 x 110 hp motors (from the same source). So a single 501
had a power rating of 740hp, whilst a single 313 has 880hp. This is
nearly 20% more power and 50 % more motors. The potential problem on
the DC line wasn't the length of the train, but whether the power
supply could deal with the higher current drawn by a 6 car 313
(especially on starting) compared to a 6 car 501 in days gone by.

NB, I know that hp is hard to relate directly to the current drawn by
the unit, but the comparison still shows the potential problem.

And the 1938TS had (IIRC) 2 x 168HP motors per motor car of which there
were 5 per train, total 1680HP. I also have a feeling that 501s ran in
pairs on occasion.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 15 Feb, 13:59, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
How do they cope with 6-car 313 trains on the GN then?

The power supply on the GN can cope with them. The power supply on
the DC lines can't (according to a recent thread).

But the GN has DC lines from Drayton Park to Moorgate. The trains are
limited to 30 MPH (series only) but I thought that was because of the
tunnels, not the power supply.

It's not that DC is inherently incapable (see: 12-car Desiros on SWT,
which draw more than 2x the power of a 6-car 313), it's that the
specific actual DC power system, substations, cabling, etc that was
installed on the North London Railway in 1916, even with whatever
upgrading it's received since, is not capable. The system installed in
the GN in the mid-1970s was much more powerful...

[see also: electric trains north of Cambridge or between Leeds and
Skipton. 25kV AC is perfectly capable of handling TGVs and massive
freight trains, but the systems installed in the 1980s can only handle
a couple of EMU...]

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In article
,
(John B) wrote:

On 15 Feb, 13:59, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
How do they cope with 6-car 313 trains on the GN then?

The power supply on the GN can cope with them. The power supply on
the DC lines can't (according to a recent thread).

But the GN has DC lines from Drayton Park to Moorgate. The trains are
limited to 30 MPH (series only) but I thought that was because of the
tunnels, not the power supply.

It's not that DC is inherently incapable (see: 12-car Desiros on SWT,
which draw more than 2x the power of a 6-car 313), it's that the
specific actual DC power system, substations, cabling, etc that was
installed on the North London Railway in 1916, even with whatever
upgrading it's received since, is not capable. The system installed in
the GN in the mid-1970s was much more powerful...

[see also: electric trains north of Cambridge or between Leeds and
Skipton. 25kV AC is perfectly capable of handling TGVs and massive
freight trains, but the systems installed in the 1980s can only handle
a couple of EMU...]

But the power supply North of Queen's Park could handle 1680HP 1938TS. So
why not a mere 6 cars of class 313?

--
Colin Rosenstiel