On 29 Feb, 10:23, "Richard J." wrote:
The link you provided earlier was to the DLR C-o-C of 2006 which has now
been superseded. The latest one is the TfL C-o-C dated 2 January 2008 at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...e-08-01-02.pdf
which includes the following:

Note, no mention of DLR or trams, so touching in when your journey is
covered by a season ticket is NOT necessary on DLR or trams, but IS
required on LU, NR and buses (including bendy buses).

Hmm.

Amused the self-righteous tit upthread is wrong - however, there is no
sane reason for this rule to exist on any means of transport, and
anyone who believes that there is (or that someone who breaks it is a
fare evader, rather than the victim of a bloody silly and pointless
rule) is an idiot.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 29 Feb, 09:26, Offramp wrote:
Explain how a journey with a travelcard within the zones covered by
the travelcard is fare-evasion.

You are obviously one of the many people who believe that the purpose
of Oyster is to make it easier to enforce the rules of Oyster.

I do not see what your point is, or why you have become so defensive.
The Conditions of Carriage are very clear, and I won't repeat them.
People who for some reason do not want to obey those conditions must
have a reason for not obeying them. I do not know what that reason is,
but I have my own opinion, which I will keep to myself.

Because, having paid GBP1000 to TfL for the privilege of travelling
throughout London, I'd like to do so with the minimum of hassle. So,
when making a journey that I've already paid for, I don't see any
reason why I should subject myself to the extra inconvenience of
searching for the Oyster readers and touching in, given that doing so
will make no different to TfL's revenues or to my costs.

That's my "reason for not obeying them". What's your suggestion?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 29 Feb, 09:26, Offramp wrote:
On Feb 29, 9:14 am, MIG wrote:





On Feb 29, 6:52 am, Offramp wrote:

On Feb 28, 10:43 am, MIG wrote:

On 28 Feb, 10:09, John B wrote:

On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

That's not quite true. *If you have a zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster
and continue to West Ruislip via Bank using PAYG for the excess, you
do need to touch in somewhere. *True, you can do it at Bank, but might
as well be at your starting station to avoid forgetting.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f_carriage.pdf
On page 12:
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader.

That ties in with TfL's general Conditions of Carriage.
There is no mention of what type of ticket; it just means all Oyster
cards. There's obviously a lot of fare evaders in this group!-

Explain how a journey with a travelcard within the zones covered by
the travelcard is fare-evasion.

You are obviously one of the many people who believe that the purpose
of Oyster is to make it easier to enforce the rules of Oyster.

I do not see what your point is, or why you have become so defensive.
The Conditions of Carriage are very clear, and I won't repeat them.
People who for some reason do not want to obey those conditions must
have a reason for not obeying them. I do not know what that reason is,
but I have my own opinion, which I will keep to myself.

You added a comment about met: "You are obviously one of the many
people who believe that the purpose of Oyster is to make it easier to
enforce the rules of Oyster."
I do not know what makes you think that. I have simply quoted the Cs-o-
C

I was getting at your assumption that any non-compliance with
Conditions is somehow fare-evasion. Some people refuse to see the
difference and think that it's justified to punish people with maximum
fares if they didn't touch correctly, just because it's the rules, in
cases where there can be no suspicion of fare-evasion.

Your accusations are bizarre if you really think that not touching
your travelcard on the DLR and then getting charged a maximum fare at
the end of your extended-zone journey is fare-evasion. Can you
describe a situation in which someone with a travelcard valid for the
DLR can in any way save money by not touching in at the DLR? Maybe a
zone 1 only travelcard, in which case you could rightly be caught in
the zone 2 or 3 sections.

The Conditions are clearly nonsensical anyway, since many travelcard
journeys covered by them begin and end at places where it is not
possible to touch in or out. I used to do a regular journey between
SE suburbs and SWT suburbs where the only place I ever touched was at
the SWT suburban end (no validators at Waterloo or in the SE area).

This was fare-evasion according to you, but not to the many RPOs who's
machines gave green lights when they checked my card.

On 29 Feb, 10:23, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
On Feb 29, 8:37 am, James Farrar wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:39:06 -0800 (PST), Offramp
wrote:
Transport for London disagrees with you. The Conditions of
Carriage state that all Oyster card users must swipe in at their
start and end stations.

The CoC state all sorts of interesting things. *In this case,
you're deflecting away from the original point that Travelcard
holders do not need to touch in and out[*] within the zones of
their Travelcard to avoid a maximum cash fare.

[*] And can you please stop using the inappropriate verb "swipe"?
Swiping the card across the target is liable to lead to a 94 error.

The original point was "Do they still have those misleading -
totally incorrect in fact - signs on the validators that only
pay-as-you-go customers need to swipe in? (It should be that all
Oyster customers need to swipe in)."

As the DLR and TfL C-o-Cs state, "all Oyster customers need to swipe
in," as I said, or "all Oyster customers need to touch in," no
matter what their journey is.

The link you provided earlier was to the DLR C-o-C of 2006 which has now
been superseded. The latest one is the TfL C-o-C dated 2 January 2008 athttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
which includes the following:

"1.2. These Conditions of Carriage, which may be amended from time to
time, replace all previous versions published by Transport for London,
London Transport and its subsidiaries.

6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use London Underground, London Overground and National
Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader
at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket gates at
stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on the card
reader.
When you use a bus, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card
reader as you board the bus ..."

Note, no mention of DLR or trams, so touching in when your journey is
covered by a season ticket is NOT necessary on DLR or trams, but IS
required on LU, NR and buses (including bendy buses).

In the case of straight buses, I assume that the driver looking at the
bleeper is the equivalent of a barrier, and simply confirms that you
have something valid before you go past.

I've never bothered to touch a travelcard on a bendy bus. On a bus I
can't see that there's any possibility of this being fare-evasion,
since there can be no extended zones involved.

I have an annual season for zones 1 and 2, which is loaded onto an
oyster. I use the DLR almost every day.

I do not touch in / touch out when travelling on DLR. Nor do lots of
my fellow (honest) travellers who use the DLR every day.

I frequently have my ticket checked by DLR/tfl inspectors during my
journeys - in fact it happened this morning on my way to work. The
ticket inspectors use one of those portable reader things. I never
get any problem from them. Their machine always gives the green light
- confirming that I have valid ticket for the journey. The irrelevant
detail that I didn't swipe in doesn't bother them at all.

but not to the many RPOs who's
machines gave green lights when they checked my card.

Oh my God. I deserve to be penalty-fared for that apostrophe. Just a
case of my fingers leading my brain I'm afraid.

First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged with
fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a more
up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be very
useful.

Why does one have to touch in - apart from it being a condition of
your carriage?

Someone with a zone 2 weekly, who is travelling from Prince Regent to
Canary Wharf, and who does not swipe in at Prince Regent "because I
don't have to touch in there" and then gets a call on his mobile to
meet a friend at Camden Town, and changes at Bank and travels to that
meeting and touches out at Camden Town... what is that? Fare evasion
or a penalty fare?

Or someone has a zones 1 & 2 travelcard and is stopped by an RCI
between Euston Square and King's Cross, and has travelled from
Heathrow, but who says he has travelled from Prince Regent, "because I
don't have to touch in there," is he liable for a penalty fare (or
prosecution)?

Just a reminder - the last one:
"When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and National
Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey."

Some people seem to think this is a massive disaster - it may be, but
it is a c of c.

Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23. It's
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...e-08-01-02.pdf
If you go to www.tfl.gov.uk and click on Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which the
TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Feb 29, 10:48*pm, Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged with
fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a more
up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be very
useful.

Given that all of NR without Oyster can't be included, such conditions
would be nonsensical. If they are not current, as suggested, they
were even more nonsensical when written.


Why does one have to touch in - apart from it being a condition of
your carriage?

If the only reason for a rule is to enforce the rule that you must
follow the rules, then the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
(Yeah, with Oyster I often think that they have.)

Or perhaps a sensible reason might be to make sure that people pay the
right fare. People who have a valid travelcard have paid the fare and
can demonstrate that they have, to the satisfaction of anyone who has
ever checked tickets on on the DLR, and are not punished for not
touching in. Do you seriously think that they should be?


Someone with a zone 2 weekly, who is travelling from Prince Regent to
Canary Wharf, and who does not swipe in at Prince Regent "because I
don't have to touch in there" and then gets a call on his mobile to
meet a friend at Camden Town, and changes at Bank and travels to that
meeting and touches out at Camden Town... what is that? Fare evasion
or a penalty fare?

If they are doing that, they are not travelling within the zones
covered by their travelcard. The call must have come while they still
were, or else they are already evading their fare. So they touch in
at the station where they were originally planning to get off and
start again.


Or someone has a zones 1 & 2 travelcard and is stopped by an RCI
between Euston Square and King's Cross, and has travelled from
Heathrow, but who says he has travelled from Prince Regent, "because I
don't have to touch in there," is he liable for a penalty fare (or
prosecution)?

Should be liable for prosecution, but should have been checked between
Heathrow and zone 2. How would he have got in anyway?

You have highlighted the different assumptions of guilt between PAYG
and travelcards, but the situation is the same as it would with a
paper travelcard. Swap an NR zone 6 station for Heathrow and how
could he touch in?


Just a reminder - the last one:
"When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and National
Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey."

Some people seem to think this is a massive disaster - it may be, but
it is a c of c.

It's also impossible for many journeys. If, as suggested, it's out of
date, then it was even more impossible when it was written, because
there were less Oyster validators in the past.

On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23. *It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukand click on Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which the
TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. *I've flagged
this to them this evening.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Has anyone yet responded?
Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.