Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

Am Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:53:51 UTC, schrieb Mike Roebuck
auf uk.railway :

They'd lose their jobs if the financial centre of Europe moved out of
London to Frankfurt.

So - learn German and move to Frankfurt.

You don't need to speak German to work in many of the banks here.


Cheers,
L.W.

Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

In message
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:38:58 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Do you propose that further growth of London is feasible, then?

I'd say it was inevitable.

I'd say we should be doing our utmost to avoid it, unless it is things
that can go on only in London.

Who is this We?


This is true, though the difference between rents and mortgages in
many places suggests that there is not a correct balance.

Which means?

It is vastly cheaper to rent than buy on a monthly basis in many
places these days. Certainly, in Milton Keynes one would pay about
£500 per month to rent a one-bed flat but £700-800 per month to
purchase it using a repayment mortgage. The main reason for this is
that there is a glut of rental property on the market.

Which presumably explains why rents seem to be increasing rapidly at the
moment.

Given the limited amount of property, this will necessarily cause purchase
prices to rise.


Have you looked out of your window lately?

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:59:55 +0000, Roland Perry
mangled uncounted electrons thus:

In message , at 16:36:51 on
Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Grumpy Old Man
remarked:
The London 2012 Olympics will cost £18bn, is that essential?

Is it even correct? The bill for the infrastructure is £4.8bn

Is that any
less bankrupting then Crossrail?

An utter waste of money.

And there's an estimated £6Bn benefit, so I'm not as pessimistic as you
are.

The good citizens of Montreal were paying a special tax to meet
the cost of the games (held in 1976) until 2006, so a friend who
lives out there tells me...

Martin D. Pay
Holding the Olympics is a ridiculous luxury that we simply don't
need. IMO, of course...

Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

In message
"Lüko Willms" wrote:

Am Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:53:51 UTC, schrieb Mike Roebuck
auf uk.railway :

They'd lose their jobs if the financial centre of Europe moved out of
London to Frankfurt.

So - learn German and move to Frankfurt.

You don't need to speak German to work in many of the banks here.


But it would help for going shopping after work...

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

"Lüko Willms" writes:
So - learn German and move to Frankfurt.

You don't need to speak German to work in many of the banks here.

My impression is that most educated Germans speak better English than I
do... :-/

[ The first time I went to Germany, I came out of the airport, and tried
to ask a question in German at a newsstand -- whereupon the newsagent
started yelling at me to "speak English!" :-O

It was kind of a relief to go to (former) East Germany (this was just
after unification) where I could practice speaking German without
risking ridicule... ]

-Miles

--
Opposition, n. In politics the party that prevents the Goverment from running
amok by hamstringing it.

Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
, at
10:47:51 on Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Mizter T remarked:

I remain a supporter of the 2012 Games, I think it'll do a lot of good
in a great many different ways.

I'm disappointed they aren't doing the rowing in Nottingham - I could have
walked to the venue!

Yeah, well Nottingham didn't win the Olympic competition, did it, London
did!

As a compromise, i propose the rowing be held ing Mottingham. They can do
it on the lake in the nature reserve:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...669&t=k &z=17

It'll be a pretty tactical course, that.

tom

--
I believe there is no philosophical high-road in science, with
epistemological signposts. No, we are in a jungle and find our way by
trial and error, building our road behind us as we proceed. -- Max Born

Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Mizter T wrote:

I remain a supporter of the 2012 Games, I think it'll do a lot of good
in a great many different ways.

Great! You can pay my council tax bill, then.

tom

--
I believe there is no philosophical high-road in science, with
epistemological signposts. No, we are in a jungle and find our way by
trial and error, building our road behind us as we proceed. -- Max Born

Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Andy wrote:

On Mar 25, 5:01*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Andy wrote:

But wasn't the main justification for crossrail the relief of the
overcrowding already present on existing lines, as well as allowing
for predicted growth. It will take a fair number of people off the
Central line (and other Underground lines) as well as providing extra
capacity on the National Rail lines to either side.

Except it won't. It will relieve the Central line west of Stratford,
for sure, which in practice means Stratford to Oxford Circus. But it
doesn't actually add any capacity at all to the Great Eastern or
Western railways - every path that Crossrail will use is currently used
by a normal train. Crossrail trains will be a bit longer, but you could
deliver the same capacity increase by adapting those lines for longer
trains without the central tunnel bit for a lot less money.

It will also relieve the Circle, Met, H&C, the Bakerloo and the
Jubilee, at least.

You're right, it will relieve the Circle/Met/H&C between Liverpool Street
and Farringdon, my bad. The Bakerloo too, but this is not exactly
overcrowded as it stands. The Jubilee?

If you look back, the relief of already overcrowed underground lines was
always the main reason behind the plans.

Kind of. I've read all of the rail studies that have led to Crossrail over
the last 20 years or so, and one thing that's conspicuously absent is a
solid justification. The studies take it as a starting point that an
east-west rail tunnel will be built, and just look at the details of how
best to do it.

The services to/from the West will gain a considerable increase in
capacity, with 10 car trains replacing the current shorter DMUs. The
services to/from the East will generally also gain in train length, as
the stopping trains are mostly (all?) eight cars.

True. All of which could be done without the tunnel, for a fraction of the
price.

The fact that it will reduce journey times is an added benefit, but not
the main justification for the construction.

It also won't reduce journey times much. Trips you can make with Crossrail
can currently be made with train plus Central line via quite easy changes
at Stratford or Ealing Broadway (or more painful ones at Liverpool Street
or Paddington, after a quicker run to the terminal). It will make the
trips a lot more convenient by eliminating those changes, but not hugely
faster.

There will certainly be faster journey times on the western side, as the
EMUs will accelerate considerably better than the Turbos and with all
(at least during the peak) trains being of the same type pathing will be
slightly easier.

Again, could be done without the tunnel.

There is also the consideration of having to leave time for delays on
the underground when heading home. A change of train at either Ealing or
Paddington means having to pad your journey a fair amount. I do agree
that this is less of a problem on the Eastern side though.

I wonder how much rearranging Ealing Broadway for better interchange from
NR to LU would cost. Probably a lot.

Don't forget that the capacity doesn't just deal with the trains, but
the space needed at the stations for interchange. A fair amount of the
costs of Crossrail stations in central london will be needed anyway as
the current underground stations can't cope. Oxford Circus is sometimes
closed due to overcrowding, and Tottenham Court Road always a bit of a
nightmare to get around, even off peak.

Do we know how much of the budget is for this? My understanding was that
Oxford Circus wasn't going to be rebuilt; the Crossrail station would be
essentialy separate. It thus has a slightly marginal effect on
overcrowding - the people relieved onto Crossrail will no longer be
clogging the place up, but plenty of other people will. No idea about TCR.

tom

--
I believe there is no philosophical high-road in science, with
epistemological signposts. No, we are in a jungle and find our way by
trial and error, building our road behind us as we proceed. -- Max Born

Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

On 25 Mar, 23:49, Tom Anderson wrote:
The Jubilee?

To Docklands. AIUI the Jubilee between London Bridge and North
Greenwich is already one of the most congested bits of the network.

True. All of which could be done without the tunnel, for a fraction of the
price.

And without increasing any capacity from the termini to where people
work/shop/go out/etc, which is the whole point of the current
iteration of the project.

Again, could be done without the tunnel.

And where do you plan to build the extra platforms at Paddington and
Liverpool Street?

Do we know how much of the budget is for this? My understanding was that
Oxford Circus wasn't going to be rebuilt; the Crossrail station would be
essentialy separate. It thus has a slightly marginal effect on
overcrowding - the people relieved onto Crossrail will no longer be
clogging the place up, but plenty of other people will. No idea about TCR.

Slightly marginal? The two Crossrail stations adjacent to Oxford
Circus will have enormous entrances at the ends nearest to it, exactly
to attract the crowds away without overcrowding the actual Oxford
Circus area. In theory at least they're hoping to attract away a lot
more passengers.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
 

On 25 Mar, 23:27, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Mizter T wrote:
I remain a supporter of the 2012 Games, I think it'll do a lot of good
in a great many different ways.

Great! You can pay my council tax bill, then.


What is it, like an extra £20 a year on the London council tax.