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Crossrail could bankrupt London - says Ken Livingstone
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Andy wrote:
On Mar 26, 6:53*pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Mr Thant wrote: On 25 Mar, 23:49, Tom Anderson wrote: The Jubilee? To Docklands. AIUI the Jubilee between London Bridge and North Greenwich is already one of the most congested bits of the network. Right. And how is Crossrail going to relieve that? By letting people on the North Kent line from east of Abbey Wood change there? That's not exactly a huge fraction of the Jubilee's passengers, is it? And don't they already have the option to do Greenwich - Docklands by DLR? Not that that's exactly a high-capacity route itself. There will also be the East London Line extension feeding passengers in at Whitechapel. These passengers who would currently goto London Bridge for the Jubilee line. Oh, i see. So, Kent - New Cross Gate - Whitechapel - Canary Wharf? They'll make two changes and a sort of spiral round Docklands? True. All of which could be done without the tunnel, for a fraction of the price. And without increasing any capacity from the termini to where people work/shop/go out/etc, which is the whole point of the current iteration of the project. Entirely agreed. But the point i was making in the text that's been snipped is that the Crossrail project doesn't deliver significant increases in capacity outside central London, and none that couldn't be provided much more cheaply. But it is the central London section that needs the capacity, as the Underground can not distribute passengers arriving from the mainline. How much cheaper would it be to provide the extra capacity across London without the joining the lines to the west and east? Passengers taken off, for example, the Central line at Liverpool Street / Stratford will give more capacity for passengers from the West Anglia lines. Absolutely. Sorry that i haven't really made myself clear about all this - i think Crossrail's a good idea (although not as good an idea as some other options which were dismissed - but that's another story), i just think it's misleading to say it'll increase capacity on the lines it's assimilating. Again, could be done without the tunnel. And where do you plan to build the extra platforms at Paddington and Liverpool Street? Liverpool Street isn't limited by platform capacity, it's limited by capacity through the station throat. Rebuilding that is entirely possible, although of course not trivial. I don't know about Paddington, i have to confess. But since all we're talking about is lengthening trains, why do we need more platforms? Paddington has at least three platforms that are of limited length (12-14, plus 11 which shares the country end track with the entrance to platform 12). If you lengthen the trains to 8 or 10 coaches, I don't think that any of these platforms can cope. Liverpool Street also suffers from some of the same problems, with platforms 16-18 limited to 8 coaches. At both locations, the trains serving these platforms will be the ones sent down the crossrail tunnels. Right. Problems which could be solved without recourse to a tunnel. Do we know how much of the budget is for this? My understanding was that Oxford Circus wasn't going to be rebuilt; the Crossrail station would be essentialy separate. It thus has a slightly marginal effect on overcrowding - the people relieved onto Crossrail will no longer be clogging the place up, but plenty of other people will. No idea about TCR. Slightly marginal? The two Crossrail stations adjacent to Oxford Circus will have enormous entrances at the ends nearest to it, exactly to attract the crowds away without overcrowding the actual Oxford Circus area. In theory at least they're hoping to attract away a lot more passengers. If you're going into Oxford Circus to get on the Victoria line, this isn't going to make any difference whatsoever. The new bit being added, however enormous, will only decongest the existing station to the extent that they can abstract passengers away from the Central line. The difference in getting to the Victoria line is that it will be easier to enter the station. Yes, yes, but the extent to which it does that is only the extent to which you take passengers off the Central, that's what i'm saying. It will also mean that Oxford Circus doesn't need to be expensively rebuilt to add capacity for entrance / exit. It might. It probably will still need it! tom -- 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 -- AACS Licensing Administrator |
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