On Mar 28, 12:54Â*pm, Mizter T wrote:
Andy wrote:
On Mar 28, 9:12�am, Mizter T wrote:

On 28 Mar, 01:48, Andy wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:59 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Andy wrote:

(snip)

There will also be the East London Line extension feeding passengers in
at Whitechapel. These passengers who would currently goto London Bridge
for the Jubilee line.

Oh, i see. So, Kent - New Cross Gate - Whitechapel - Canary Wharf?
They'll make two changes and a sort of spiral round Docklands?

No, not Kent, London Bridge is not purely served by South Eastern, but
by Southern as well. The ELLX will run West Croydon and Crystal Palace
to Whitechapel giving passengers one stop on Crossrail to Docklands.
North Kent will be served by changing at Abbey Wood, as others have
suggested. There will also be the possibility of Thameslink passengers
changing at Farringdon from the south.

(I think Tom was getting somewhat confused between NX and NXG but
anyway...)

Though for those travelling via the ELLX to Canary Wharf from points
south I find it difficult to believe that anyone would do anything
other than change onto the Jubilee at Canada Water - going via
Whitechapel and Crossrail would entail staying on the ELLX for three
extra stops.

I was kind of forgetting Rotherhithe, Wapping and Shadwell on the
ELLX, however, the first two stations are very close together and
close to Canada Water!! The Crossrail station at Isle of Dogs will be
on the other side of Canary Wharf (it will be under West India Dock
between Canary Wharf and West India Quay, to the east of the West
Indix Quay DLR station Â*) from the Jubilee station and the extra time
spent on the ELLX train would be made up for any passengers heading to
the Northern side of the offices here.

Sorry Andy but I just don't buy that. Crossrail may have many benefits
but this is not going to be one of them.

Even if we take a worst case scenario that Rotherhithe and Wapping
might have to close at some point in the more distant future if there
is some plan for longer trains on the ELLX, the extra distance and
journey time from Canada Water to Whitechapel (with at least one stop
at Shadwell) just doesn't compare to a direct trip under the Thames
from Canada Water to Canary Wharf on the Jubilee. Passengers are not
going to choose to introduce this extra dogleg into their journey,
especially given the very easy interchange offered at Canada Water.

I also simply don't agree with your argument that the location of the
Isle of Dogs Crossrail station will be so advantageous that some
passengers will wish to choose it over the Jubilee line station - the
tube station really is hardly any distance away so only the *most*
stupid and lazy would possibly factor in these few saved paces and
decide to build there commute around that.


I think that you would be surprised that the number of passengers who
will do anything to avoid the tube!! I'm not saying it will be a large
number of people taking that route, but it won't be zero either.

Of course passengers traveling via the ELLX and the Jubilee will
benefit indirectly from Crossrail as it'll take the strain off the
overcrowded Jubilee line by removing passengers from points west.

I don't think it likely that Thameslink passengers from the south will
pass through London Bridge and go up to Farringdon for Crossrail
rather than changing to the Jubilee from London Bridge, though this
will certainly look like a good move for those coming from the
Wimbledon/Sutton loop (or other similar south London suburban start
points if the Thameslink service gets rejigged). Even if the
interchange at Farringdon is very easy,


I wasn't really thinking of the Thameslink passengers from the
Brighton / Croydon - London mainline, who as you say have
alternatives. I was thinking of the Wimbledon / Sutton loop (or
wherever in the future) passengers. Farringdon is only be a few
minutes from Blackfriars and connections will certainly be easier to
Docklands than they currently for the non London Bridge Thameslink
passengers.

Crossrail will be of benefit directly or indirectly (through relief of
overcrowding) for many Docklands commuters no doubt, but I don't think
it's that great an idea to try and shoehorn all potential Docklands-
bound journeys into somehow making use of Crossrail!

On 28 Mar, 14:22, Andy wrote:

On Mar 28, 12:54 pm, Mizter T wrote:

Andy wrote:

On Mar 28, 9:12�am, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

Though for those travelling via the ELLX to Canary Wharf from points
south I find it difficult to believe that anyone would do anything
other than change onto the Jubilee at Canada Water - going via
Whitechapel and Crossrail would entail staying on the ELLX for three
extra stops.

I was kind of forgetting Rotherhithe, Wapping and Shadwell on the
ELLX, however, the first two stations are very close together and
close to Canada Water!! The Crossrail station at Isle of Dogs will be
on the other side of Canary Wharf (it will be under West India Dock
between Canary Wharf and West India Quay, to the east of the West
Indix Quay DLR station ) from the Jubilee station and the extra time
spent on the ELLX train would be made up for any passengers heading to
the Northern side of the offices here.

Sorry Andy but I just don't buy that. Crossrail may have many benefits
but this is not going to be one of them.

Even if we take a worst case scenario that Rotherhithe and Wapping
might have to close at some point in the more distant future if there
is some plan for longer trains on the ELLX, the extra distance and
journey time from Canada Water to Whitechapel (with at least one stop
at Shadwell) just doesn't compare to a direct trip under the Thames
from Canada Water to Canary Wharf on the Jubilee. Passengers are not
going to choose to introduce this extra dogleg into their journey,
especially given the very easy interchange offered at Canada Water.

I also simply don't agree with your argument that the location of the
Isle of Dogs Crossrail station will be so advantageous that some
passengers will wish to choose it over the Jubilee line station - the
tube station really is hardly any distance away so only the *most*
stupid and lazy would possibly factor in these few saved paces and
decide to build there commute around that.

I think that you would be surprised that the number of passengers who
will do anything to avoid the tube!! I'm not saying it will be a large
number of people taking that route, but it won't be zero either.

You make a good point there, there are a sizeable number of people who
wish to avoid the tube, especially when it's busy, even if it is for
just one stop. I suppose against that I'd say that Crossrail should
relieve the overcrowding Jubilee line somewhat, and indeed Crossrail
could get just as busy as the Jubilee. Though there will be those
who'd always prefer to travel in a full sized carriage rather than a
tube sized one, even if it is similarly busy.

The other factor I hadn't really though about was people trying to get
seats. Those heading back home could conceivably travel via Crossrail
and Whitechapel in the hope that they'd be more likely to pick up a
seat on an ELLX train there rather than joining the scrum at Canada
Water. Whether they'd be many free seats remaining on a rush-hour
southbound ELLX after the City commuters got on board at Shoreditch
High Street remains to be seen!


Of course passengers traveling via the ELLX and the Jubilee will
benefit indirectly from Crossrail as it'll take the strain off the
overcrowded Jubilee line by removing passengers from points west.

I don't think it likely that Thameslink passengers from the south will
pass through London Bridge and go up to Farringdon for Crossrail
rather than changing to the Jubilee from London Bridge, though this
will certainly look like a good move for those coming from the
Wimbledon/Sutton loop (or other similar south London suburban start
points if the Thameslink service gets rejigged). Even if the
interchange at Farringdon is very easy,

I wasn't really thinking of the Thameslink passengers from the
Brighton / Croydon - London mainline, who as you say have
alternatives. I was thinking of the Wimbledon / Sutton loop (or
wherever in the future) passengers. Farringdon is only be a few
minutes from Blackfriars and connections will certainly be easier to
Docklands than they currently for the non London Bridge Thameslink
passengers.

Crossrail will be of benefit directly or indirectly (through relief of
overcrowding) for many Docklands commuters no doubt, but I don't think
it's that great an idea to try and shoehorn all potential Docklands-
bound journeys into somehow making use of Crossrail!

Sorry, I didn't respond to your second point in my first reply, hence
this second reply!

On 28 Mar, 14:22, Andy wrote:

On Mar 28, 12:54 pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

I don't think it likely that Thameslink passengers from the south will
pass through London Bridge and go up to Farringdon for Crossrail
rather than changing to the Jubilee from London Bridge, though this
will certainly look like a good move for those coming from the
Wimbledon/Sutton loop (or other similar south London suburban start
points if the Thameslink service gets rejigged). Even if the
interchange at Farringdon is very easy,

(Apols - it appears I never finished my sentence above! I'll leave it
hanging - you get the gist.)


I wasn't really thinking of the Thameslink passengers from the
Brighton / Croydon - London mainline, who as you say have
alternatives. I was thinking of the Wimbledon / Sutton loop (or
wherever in the future) passengers. Farringdon is only be a few
minutes from Blackfriars and connections will certainly be easier to
Docklands than they currently for the non London Bridge Thameslink
passengers.


That's all very true. At the moment there really isn't a decent route
for such passengers - alight at Elephant & Castle then crammed
Northern line to London Bridge and change to the Jubilee is the most
obvious I suppose. Other more imaginative routes could involve walking
from Blackfriars to Bank for the DLR, though if you were to do that
you might as well walk (or even get the bus against the flow) from
Blackfriars to Southwark station (Jubilee), or walk or bus it from E&C
to Southwark.

Depending upon what happens to the Thameslink service pattern in south
London it could even take some of the strain off of the Northern and
Jubilee lines, other mainline services into London Bridge and
generally relieve London Bridge somewhat as an interchange point by
diverting Docklands-bound commuters up to Farringdon for interchange
with Crossrail.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

Depending upon what happens to the Thameslink service pattern in south
London it could even take some of the strain off of the Northern and
Jubilee lines, other mainline services into London Bridge and
generally relieve London Bridge somewhat as an interchange point by
diverting Docklands-bound commuters up to Farringdon for interchange
with Crossrail.

At the risk of going off at a slight tangent, are Thameslink services on the
Wimbledon loop constrained currently by the single platform and
bidirectional working at Wimbledon? Given the eventual proposed Thameslink
frequencies, will the decision to give a platform over to Tramlink come to
be regretted ?

Paul S

On Mar 28, 3:50*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

Depending upon what happens to the Thameslink service pattern in south
London it could even take some of the strain off of the Northern and
Jubilee lines, other mainline services into London Bridge and
generally relieve London Bridge somewhat as an interchange point by
diverting Docklands-bound commuters up to Farringdon for interchange
with Crossrail.

At the risk of going off at a slight tangent, are Thameslink services on the
Wimbledon loop constrained currently by the single platform and
bidirectional working at Wimbledon? Given the eventual proposed Thameslink
frequencies, will the decision to give a platform over to Tramlink come to
be regretted ?

Paul S

I think that there are constrained from getting much more frequent on
the Wimbledon to Sutton bit, due to the single platform. From memory,
services are approximately every 30 minutes around the loop in each
direction (even during the peak hours), giving 4 trains per hour
through the single platform. I suppose that the frequency could be
increased, but probably not to much more than every 15 minutes in each
direction without affecting reliability and pathing.

However (and I don't know if this is planned), there is the
terminating track at the north end of the platform where the Tramlink
platform is. This would allow a greater frequency on the Wimbledon -
Tooting - Thameslink route. There are a couple of trains that use this
already during the peak shoulders.

Andy wrote:
On Mar 28, 3:50 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

At the risk of going off at a slight tangent, are Thameslink
services on the Wimbledon loop constrained currently by the single
platform and bidirectional working at Wimbledon? Given the eventual
proposed Thameslink frequencies, will the decision to give a
platform over to Tramlink come to be regretted ?

Paul S

I think that there are constrained from getting much more frequent on
the Wimbledon to Sutton bit, due to the single platform. From memory,
services are approximately every 30 minutes around the loop in each
direction (even during the peak hours), giving 4 trains per hour
through the single platform. I suppose that the frequency could be
increased, but probably not to much more than every 15 minutes in each
direction without affecting reliability and pathing.

However (and I don't know if this is planned), there is the
terminating track at the north end of the platform where the Tramlink
platform is. This would allow a greater frequency on the Wimbledon -
Tooting - Thameslink route. There are a couple of trains that use this
already during the peak shoulders.

Thanks, presumably only 4 car trains though? I did notice the other day
that platform 10 still has the same stop markers as platform 9, for trains
arriving from the southwest through back to back buffer stops presumably!

Paul S

Andy wrote:
On Mar 28, 3:50 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

I think that there are constrained from getting much more frequent on
the Wimbledon to Sutton bit, due to the single platform. From memory,
services are approximately every 30 minutes around the loop in each
direction (even during the peak hours), giving 4 trains per hour
through the single platform. I suppose that the frequency could be
increased, but probably not to much more than every 15 minutes in each
direction without affecting reliability and pathing.

However (and I don't know if this is planned), there is the
terminating track at the north end of the platform where the Tramlink
platform is. This would allow a greater frequency on the Wimbledon -
Tooting - Thameslink route. There are a couple of trains that use this
already during the peak shoulders.

Now that the South London RUS is out - I see Wimbledon loop trains will be
terminating in the bays at Blackfriars in the final Thameslink arrangement,
avoiding the crossing moves south of Blackfriars that we have discussed in
the past. There seems no real reason why the service might not be
transferred to Southern (or LO) then, using DC stock, leaving FCC or their
successor to concentrate on the main routes?

Paul S

On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Paul Scott wrote:

Andy wrote:
On Mar 28, 3:50 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

I think that there are constrained from getting much more frequent on
the Wimbledon to Sutton bit, due to the single platform. From memory,
services are approximately every 30 minutes around the loop in each
direction (even during the peak hours), giving 4 trains per hour
through the single platform. I suppose that the frequency could be
increased, but probably not to much more than every 15 minutes in each
direction without affecting reliability and pathing.

However (and I don't know if this is planned), there is the
terminating track at the north end of the platform where the Tramlink
platform is. This would allow a greater frequency on the Wimbledon -
Tooting - Thameslink route. There are a couple of trains that use this
already during the peak shoulders.

Now that the South London RUS is out - I see Wimbledon loop trains will be
terminating in the bays at Blackfriars in the final Thameslink arrangement,

Blimey. Bit of a blow to south Londoners.

avoiding the crossing moves south of Blackfriars that we have discussed in
the past.

Has anyone proposed a flyover somewhere that would allow them to get on to
the through lines without conflicts? I know there are all sorts of planned
bits of infrastructure down there, and i can't keep track of them.

There seems no real reason why the service might not be transferred to
Southern (or LO) then, using DC stock, leaving FCC or their successor to
concentrate on the main routes?

That would fit perfectly with Thameslink's new focus on outer suburban /
middle-distance services. But not with Ken/TfL/London Rail's growing power
to promote inner suburban services. Unless he thought he could get more
frequency on that route by making it LO. Or making it a part of the ELL!

tom

--
We don't contact anybody or seek anybody's permission for what we do. Even
if it's impersonating postal employees. -- Birdstuff

On 2 Apr, 15:09, Tom Anderson wrote:
Has anyone proposed a flyover somewhere that would allow them to get on to
the through lines without conflicts? I know there are all sorts of planned
bits of infrastructure down there, and i can't keep track of them.

Only two that I know of:
- A flyover just east of London Bridge allowing trains from points
south towards Thameslink can cross over trains from points east to
Charing Cross (not sure exactly which lines)
- Doubling "Tanners Hill flydown", which is a flying junction just
west of Lewisham. Again, not sure exactly which trains make use of it.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London