On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, Walter Briscoe wrote:

In message of Tue, 18 Nov
2008 23:55:26 in uk.transport.london, Tom Anderson
writes
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Walter Briscoe wrote:

[snip]

They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un the
answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of the
material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the
Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly refer to
the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong.

I imagine you're right. But: whilst they have copyright over the text of
the document, that doesn't cover the information within it - copyright is
over expressions, not ideas. Over the information, they (may) have a
database right, which stems from a bit of legislation that amended CDPA
1988, and did indeed come into force in 1998:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/19973032.htm

Which is all a bit mental and one of the bits of IP law i really don't
understand.

The words used are "Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998 (sections 29 and
30)". You refer to a statutory instrument.

Yes - one which amends the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act. The text in
it (the important bits, at least) became part of that act. Sections 29 and
30 of CDPA 1988 do indeed deal with fair dealing, and 29 was amended by
this order to cover databases.

The act was originally passed in 1988, but those amendments were made in
1998, and i hypothesise that this is the source of TfL's confused
terminology.

tom

--
uk.local groups TO BE RENAMED uk.lunatic.fringe groups

Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message
of
Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes
[snip]
(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with
regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more
helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of
those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.

I would've thought a fairly good place to start would be the list of
stations that are valid for cross-London transfer for National Rail
ticketing purposes, as that'll give a vague idea.

The current list reads as follows:

Aldgate Farringdon Queens Park
Amersham Finsbury Park Richmond
Baker Street Greenwich Seven Sisters
Balham Highbury & Islington Southwark
Bank Kensington Olympia Stratford
Barking Kentish Town Tottenham Hale
Blackfriars King's Cross St. Pancras Tower Hill
Blackhorse Road Lancaster Gate Upminster
Cannon Street Lewisham Vauxhall
Charing Cross Limehouse Victoria
Ealing Broadway Liverpool Street Walthamstow Ctl
Edgware Road London Bridge Waterloo
Elephant & Castle Marylebone West Brompton
Embankment Moorgate West Ham
Euston Old Street West Hampstead
Euston Square Paddington Wimbledon

Cheers,

Barry

In message , Barry Salter
writes
I would've thought a fairly good place to start would be the list of
stations that are valid for cross-London transfer for National Rail
ticketing purposes, as that'll give a vague idea.

That's a surprisingly long list.

Does anyone know: if you have a national rail ticket coded for
cross-London travel will it work at any of these, or just the two
(typically) that are adjacent to the appropriate national rail termini?
E.g. if you are going from say Cambridge to Bristol, but upon arriving
at King's Cross you decide to avoid the over-crowded tube station by
walking to Euston Square, will the ticket work there? And if so is it
technically valid to do this?

--
Clive Page

In article , ine (Clive
Page) wrote:

In message , Barry Salter
writes
I would've thought a fairly good place to start would be the list of
stations that are valid for cross-London transfer for National Rail
ticketing purposes, as that'll give a vague idea.

That's a surprisingly long list.

Does anyone know: if you have a national rail ticket coded for
cross-London travel will it work at any of these, or just the two
(typically) that are adjacent to the appropriate national rail
termini? E.g. if you are going from say Cambridge to Bristol, but
upon arriving at King's Cross you decide to avoid the over-crowded
tube station by walking to Euston Square, will the ticket work
there? And if so is it technically valid to do this?

AIUI it will work.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 9 Oct, 19:45, Clive Page wrote:
Does anyone know: if you have a national rail ticket coded for
cross-London travel will it work at any of these, or just the two
(typically) that are adjacent to the appropriate national rail termini?
E.g. if you are going from say Cambridge to Bristol, but upon arriving
at King's Cross you decide to avoid the over-crowded tube station by
walking to Euston Square, will the ticket work there? Â*And if so is it
technically valid to do this?

The list is from the National Fares Manual, which introduces it thus:
"Ticket prices in Section C, for journeys routed for travel ’via
London’ and marked with the symbol âœ*, include the cost of transfer
across London by London Underground, DLR or First Capital Connect
train services on the Thameslink route. Tickets displaying the ’cross-
London’ marker â€*, are valid for travel between any two of the
following stations appropriate to the route of the through rail
journey being made."

U

In message
, at
16:23:27 on Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Mr Thant
remarked:
Does anyone know: if you have a national rail ticket coded for
cross-London travel will it work at any of these, or just the two
(typically) that are adjacent to the appropriate national rail termini?
E.g. if you are going from say Cambridge to Bristol, but upon arriving
at King's Cross you decide to avoid the over-crowded tube station by
walking to Euston Square, will the ticket work there? Â*And if so is it
technically valid to do this?

The list is from the National Fares Manual, which introduces it thus:
"Ticket prices in Section C, for journeys routed for travel ’via
London’ and marked with the symbol ?, include the cost of transfer
across London by London Underground, DLR or First Capital Connect
train services on the Thameslink route. Tickets displaying the ’cross-
London’ marker â€*, are valid for travel between any two of the
following stations appropriate to the route of the through rail
journey being made."

So all we need to know is whether or not Euston Square is considered
"appropriate" for a transferee from KX.
--
Roland Perry

Does anyone know: if you have a national rail ticket coded for
cross-London travel will it work at any of these, or just the two
(typically) that are adjacent to the appropriate national rail
termini?

It's my belief, based on experience and some knowledge of the underlying
software, that any NR ticket with cross-London validity works for any
(one) journey between any two of these stations.

If the tickets were to be restricted to a truly 'appropriate' journey,
either the ticket would have to list (on its magstripe) all the NR
stations 'appropriate' to both ends of the cross-London journey, or the
barrier would have to be able to deduce that information, given the (NR)
endpoints of the journey. The former would (in extreme cases) need more
capacity on the magstripe than exists, and the latter would probably
require the barrier to have access to the entire routing guide.

By 'extreme cases' I mean something like Birmingham to East Croydon,
where you could arrive at any of several London stations and travel to
any of several others. If you wanted to make it truly 'appropriate'
then the validity of the ticket on LU would have to depend on which NR
terminus you actually arrived at, and validity on NR leaving London
would have to depend on where you left LU (eg if you got off the tube at
Charing Cross, then it would be 'inappropriate' to take an NR train from
Victoria). I'm quite sure that isn't the case.

There remains of course the possibility that even though the barriers
allow it, the ticket isn't actually valid for the journey.

Peter

--
Peter Campbell Smith ~ London ~ pjcs00 (a) gmail.com

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Barry Salter wrote:

Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message
of Sun,
21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes
[snip]
(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with
regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more
helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of those
interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.

I would've thought a fairly good place to start would be the list of stations
that are valid for cross-London transfer for National Rail ticketing
purposes, as that'll give a vague idea.

Do OOSIs affect Oyster pay-as-you-go fares? I do Finsbury Park - Euston
- Watford Junction fairly often, and i have no idea if i'm being charged
for two trips or one. I suppose i could just go and look at my Oyster
history!

tom

--
Understanding the universe is the final purpose, as far as I'm
concerned. -- Ian York

On 10 Oct, 10:24, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Barry Salter wrote:
Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message
of Sun,
21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes
[snip]
(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with
regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more
helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of those
interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.

I would've thought a fairly good place to start would be the list of stations
that are valid for cross-London transfer for National Rail ticketing
purposes, as that'll give a vague idea.

Do OOSIs affect Oyster pay-as-you-go fares? I do Finsbury Park - Euston
- Watford Junction fairly often, and i have no idea if i'm being charged
for two trips or one. I suppose i could just go and look at my Oyster
history!

You should be charged for one. If you do A-B1 then B2-C, you'll be
charged the A-C fare, even if that's more then A-B plus B-C (though I
don't think it refunds you if A-C costs less than A-B).

Obtaining the official list of B1-B2 station pairs is what this thread
is about. Everyhing within the same station or marked on the tube map
should be on it, plus various others.

U

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:24:36 +0100,
Tom Anderson wrote:

Do OOSIs affect Oyster pay-as-you-go fares? I do Finsbury Park - Euston
- Watford Junction fairly often, and i have no idea if i'm being charged
for two trips or one. I suppose i could just go and look at my Oyster
history!

You're charged for one. Even if you were doing X - Euston Square walk
Euston - Watford Junction then it would be one.

I got bitten by this last Thursday. I had the day off and travelled into
London around 10am.

Without thinking I took the tube to Charing Cross instead of walking and
got the train back (I walked back but it was after 7pm). Kerching.
That's 3GBP for Euston-Charing Cross because Watford Junction-Zone1 at
that time of day is 6GBP even though WJ-Euston is 3GBP and
Euston-Zone1 is 1.50GBP. So much for always being charged the cheapest
fare on PAYG. (I was travelling with my partner - I wonder whether if
we'd swapped cards in Euston then they'd have to give me the 1.50GBP
back - that's then clearly two separate journeys on each card by two
different people and swapping PAYG cards is allowed.)

I'll try taking it up with TfL but last time I had something like this I
got an email acknowledgement but nothing futher at all (I asked for a
reply by letter as well as email - maybe that was a mistake)

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/