In message
of
Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes
[snip]
(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with
regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more
helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of
those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.
--
Walter Briscoe

In message of Mon, 22 Sep 2008
10:27:13 in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe
writes
In message
of
Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes
[snip]
(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with
regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more
helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of
those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.

They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for information
as a Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho!
--
Walter Briscoe

They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for information
as a Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho!
--
Walter Briscoe

Interestingly I was thinking about this the other day (having passed
through the interchange at Euston).

I'd actually just emailed the TfL press office to see if they could
get hold of any more details for me (as they're normally pretty
helpful) before i saw this, so if i get any info in response i'll
update.

John Bull

In message of Tue, 30 Sep 2008
15:56:35 in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe
writes
In message of Mon, 22 Sep 2008
10:27:13 in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe
writes
In message
of
Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes
[snip]
(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with
regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more
helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of
those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.

They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for information
as a Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho!

They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un the
answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of the
material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the
Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly refer
to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong.

However I can give a flavour.

The following interests me:
London Fenchurch Street Aldgate 30
London Fenchurch Street Bank 30
London Fenchurch Street Monument 30
London Fenchurch Street Tower Gateway 30
London Fenchurch Street Tower Hill 30

The example above illustrates that 30 minutes is the most common budget.
A curious exception is White City Wood Lane where 20 is allowed.

Tower Hill is obvious; I had found Aldgate, experimentally.
I am surprised Bank is allowed. Journey Planner shows a 13 minute walk.

Bank to Monument is not shown; I queried that - given maintenance.
I am inclined to think there ought to be a super interchange covering
Bank, Cannon Street, Mansion House, Monument, Moorgate and probably one
or two more while escalators are out for maintenance.

Times for interchange are not always symmetrical. e.g.
40 is allowed from Aldgate to London Fenchurch Street.

I have also questioned 30 Canary Wharf Heron Quays 10.

The information was supplied as 90 rows in an Excel file where each row
describes a one way interchange. I will probably recast that as 45 rows,
each describing a two way interchange.

They don't publicise or guarantee the data will remain true.

In my FOI question, I asked for a list of out of station pay as you go
interchanges and how long was budgeted for them. I got no answer to my
question on the criteria for such interchanges but am satisfied that I
now know how to make good use of out of station interchanges.
--
Walter Briscoe

"Walter Briscoe" wrote in message
...

(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case
with
regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren
Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the
more helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list
of those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.

They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for information
as a Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho!

They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un
the answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of
the material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of
the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly
refer to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong.

It seems you weren't the only one who asked.

http://londonreconnections.blogspot....ent.html#links

Times for interchange are not always symmetrical. e.g.
40 is allowed from Aldgate to London Fenchurch Street.

That is because of the frequency of trains from Fenchurch Street. If you
just miss a 2tph service then you may have to wait 20-25 minutes before
the platform of the next train is announced and you can pass through the
ticket barriers. So the interchange time has to allow for the worst case
scenario.

Peter Smyth

In message of Tue, 18 Nov 2008
23:09:23 in uk.transport.london, Peter Smyth
writes

"Walter Briscoe" wrote in message
...

(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case

regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren
Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the
more helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a
list of those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.

They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for
information as a Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho!

They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un
the answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of
the material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of
the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly
refer to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong.

It seems you weren't the only one who asked.

http://londonreconnections.blogspot....tion-interchan
ges-current.html#links


I questioned TfL as to whether the following actually are OSI
King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU 30
King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU 30

I can confirm that I had an OSI when I went from Farringdon to Moorgate
using
King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU 30

OTOH, when I went from Euston Square to Euston Square using
King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU 30
My Oyster record showed a free trip to KXSP and an unstarted journey
ending at Euston Square. There, the SAMF (ticket seller) was unable to
correct the record and I have not bothered pursuing it with Oyster
customer services. I resented the imputation that I had not touched in
at KXSP.

Times for interchange are not always symmetrical. e.g.
40 is allowed from Aldgate to London Fenchurch Street.

That is because of the frequency of trains from Fenchurch Street. If
you just miss a 2tph service then you may have to wait 20-25 minutes
before the platform of the next train is announced and you can pass
through the ticket barriers. So the interchange time has to allow for
the worst case scenario.

Peter Smyth

--
Walter Briscoe

On Jan 8, 10:07*pm, Walter Briscoe
wrote:
In message of Tue, 18 Nov 2008
23:09:23 in uk.transport.london, Peter Smyth
writes







"Walter Briscoe" wrote in message
...

(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case

regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren
Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the
more helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a
list of those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.

They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for
information as a Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho!

They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un
the answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of
the material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of
the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly
refer to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong.

It seems you weren't the only one who asked.

http://londonreconnections.blogspot....tion-interchan
ges-current.html#links

I questioned TfL as to whether the following actually are OSI
King's Cross St. Pancras Met *LU King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU 30
King's Cross St. Pancras Tube *LU King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU 30

I can confirm that I had an OSI when I went from Farringdon to Moorgate
using
King's Cross St. Pancras Met *LU King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU 30

OTOH, when I went from Euston Square to Euston Square using
King's Cross St. Pancras Tube *LU King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU 30
My Oyster record showed a free trip to KXSP and an unstarted journey
ending at Euston Square. There, the SAMF (ticket seller) was unable to
correct the record and I have not bothered pursuing it with Oyster
customer services. I resented the imputation that I had not touched in
at KXSP.

Times for interchange are not always symmetrical. e.g.
40 is allowed from Aldgate to London Fenchurch Street.

That is because of the frequency of trains from Fenchurch Street. If
you just miss a 2tph service then you may have to wait 20-25 minutes
before the platform of the next train is announced and you can pass
through the ticket barriers. So the interchange time has to allow for
the worst case scenario.

Peter Smyth

--
Walter Briscoe-

Reawakening this thread reminds me of something I was wondering about.

Is Shadwell to Whitechapel currently an OOSI? If it is, does it
require a £0 touch on the replacement bus? How does it work?

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Walter Briscoe wrote:

In message of Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:56:35
in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe writes
In message of Mon, 22 Sep 2008
10:27:13 in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe
writes
In message
of Sun,
21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes
[snip]
(And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied
together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with
regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly
Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.)

Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street.
I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more
helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of those
interchanges. If they do, I will forward here.

They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for information as a
Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho!

They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un the
answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of the
material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the
Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly refer to
the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong.

I imagine you're right. But: whilst they have copyright over the text of
the document, that doesn't cover the information within it - copyright is
over expressions, not ideas. Over the information, they (may) have a
database right, which stems from a bit of legislation that amended CDPA
1988, and did indeed come into force in 1998:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/19973032.htm

Which is all a bit mental and one of the bits of IP law i really don't
understand.

tom

--
Whose house? Run's house!

On 18 Nov, 23:55, Tom Anderson wrote:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/19973032.htm

The key part is he

"A property right ("database right") subsists, in accordance with this
Part, in a database if there has been a substantial investment in
obtaining, verifying or presenting the contents of the database"

I don't think they could reasonably claim that, especially if the
version you did publish was radically reformatted, as Walter proposes.
It's already safe to say that the info isn't protected as a creative
work, so if it isn't a protected database either, it's arguably not
under copyright at all and you can do what you like with it.

U

In message of Tue,
18 Nov 2008 23:55:26 in uk.transport.london, Tom Anderson
writes
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Walter Briscoe wrote:

[snip]

They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un
the answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of
the material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of
the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly
refer to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong.

I imagine you're right. But: whilst they have copyright over the text
of the document, that doesn't cover the information within it -
copyright is over expressions, not ideas. Over the information, they
(may) have a database right, which stems from a bit of legislation that
amended CDPA 1988, and did indeed come into force in 1998:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/19973032.htm

Which is all a bit mental and one of the bits of IP law i really don't
understand.

The words used are "Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998 (sections 29
and 30)". You refer to a statutory instrument.

In message of Tue, 18 Nov 2008
23:09:23 in uk.transport.london, Peter Smyth
writes
[snip]
It seems you weren't the only one who asked.

http://londonreconnections.blogspot....tion-interchan
ges-current.html#links

where there is a reference to http://www.dragondark.co.uk/osi/osi.htm
which, prima facie, is a copy of the data I got.

This is a transposition of the data to halve the number of lines. It
shows some weirdness around King's Cross. I added ? to show data, not
supplied but implied by symmetry. I think the data is wrong here as it
shows OSI between "King's Cross St. Pancras Met" (with Circle,
Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan services?) and "King's Cross St.
Pancras Tube" (with Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria services?). I was
irritated when such OSI stopped working once it became possible to go
between those parts of the station without traversing two gatelines.

Time limits (in minutes) for free Pay As You Go Out of Station TfL
Interchanges
A-B Station B type Station A
type B-A
40 Aldgate LU London Fenchurch Street
NR 30
30 Archway LU Upper Holloway
NR 30
50 Baker Street LU London Marylebone
NR 30
30 Bank Central/Northern/DLR LU Bank Waterloo & City
LU 30
40 Bank LU London Fenchurch Street
NR 30
30 Blackfriars LU London Blackfriars
NR 30
30 Bow Church DLR Bow Road
LU 30
30 Canary Wharf DLR Canary Wharf
LU 30
10 Canary Wharf LU Heron Quays
DLR 30
50 Edgware Road H&C LU London Marylebone
NR 30
30 Elephant & Castle LU Elephant & Castle
NR 30
30 Euston LU Euston Square
LU 30
30 Euston LU London Euston
NR 45
50 Euston Square LU London Euston
NR 30
25 Finchley Road LU Finchley Road & Frognal
NR 25
30 Hackney Central NR Hackney Downs
NR 30
30 Hammersmith D&P LU Hammersmith H&C
LU 30
25 Hanger Lane LU Park Royal
LU 25
30 Kenton NR Northwick Park
LU 30
30 King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU King's Cross St. Pancras Tube
LU 30
30 King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU London King's Cross
NR ?
? King's Cross St. Pancras Met NR London King's Cross
LU 30
30 King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU St Pancras International
NR 30
30 King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU London King's Cross
NR ?
30 King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU St Pancras International
NR 30
? King's Cross St. Pancras Tube NR London King's Cross
LU 30
30 Leytonstone LU Leytonstone High Road
NR 30
30 Limehouse DLR Limehouse
NR 30
45 Liverpool Street LU London Liverpool Street
NR 30
30 London Bridge LU London Bridge
NR 30
30 London Fenchurch Street NR Monument
LU 30
30 London Fenchurch Street NR Tower Gateway
DLR 40
30 London Fenchurch Street NR Tower Hill
LU 40
30 London King's Cross NR St Pancras International
NR 30
30 London Marylebone NR Marylebone
LU 40
45 London Paddington NR Paddington
LU 30
30 Shadwell LU Shadwell
DLR 30
30 Sudbury Hill LU Sudbury Hill, Harrow
NR 30
30 Tottenham Hale LU Tottenham Hale
NR 30
30 Tower Gateway DLR Tower Hill
LU 30
30 Walthamstow Central LU Walthamstow Central
NR 30
30 Waterloo LU Waterloo W&C
LU 30
30 Waterloo Jubilee LU Waterloo W&C
LU 30
30 West Hampstead LU West Hampstead NLL
NR 30
30 West Hampstead LU West Hampstead Thameslink
NR 30
30 West Hampstead NLL NR West Hampstead Thameslink
NR 30
20 White City LU Wood Lane
LU 20

NR = National Rail
DLR = Docklands Light Railway
LU = London Underground

--
Walter Briscoe