On 2008-11-07 11:37:19 +0000, disgoftunwells said:

On 20 Oct, 11:30, D7666 wrote:
On Oct 20, 12:11 pm, Roland Perry wrote:



In message
, at
04:06:19 on Mon, 20 Oct 2008, D7666 remarked:

I won't believe it's finished until I
can get a through train from Cambridge to Gatwick - one of the origi
nal

I am now of the opinion you won't.

Even though they completed the tunnelling into SPILL I have alwys been
sceptical about connecting up GN to it.

They are going to all this trouble of re-arranging appoaches to
Blackfriars and south/east thereof to avoid as far as possible
conflicting moves to make 24 TPH in the core work, and then build a
new junction across which every move will conflict right *in* the
core ?!?!?!?

Is it a flat junction? I thought the northbound line tunnelled under.

--
Roland Perry

Each switch forms a flat junction on both roads - even if there is no
crossing by tunnelling.

When running 24 TPH you don't really want any points at all.

Don't forget these are long 12 car trains running into or out of the
SPILL station stop - and all trains will stop - they ain't going to be
high speed across the convergence point.

Take the Jubilee line now (before resgignalling). That is planned 24
TPH in the peaks, with trains half that length, and it barely works.
Now put in a new junction at say London Bridge, right off the end of
platforms of one of the busiest core stations, even with a dive/fly to
avoid a crossing, but nonetheless convergence points on both west and
eastbound roads. *You reckon 24 TPH would still work ?

It works with the Munich S-Bahn. However, they do have double sided
platforms.

At the risk of being pedantic the S-Bahn in Munich schedules 30 trains
per hour during the peaks (admittedly not at the moment as there have
been problems with the brakes/wheel slide protection during the autumn
and the automatic door closing equipment, but these should be cleared
up by the beginning of next year).
Only the 3 busiest stations of the 5 in the tunnel section have the
double sided arrangement (the Hauptbahnhof, Karlsplatz/Stachus and
Marienplatz), but the Ostbahhof has 4 platforms dedicated to the S-Bahn
service so the trains can be launched into the tunnel section. Note
that two lines, currently the S5 and S6, /reverse/ at the Ostbahnhof.

At Donnersbergerbrücke, west of the Hbf, routes from the south and from
the west come together on each side of an island platform; they join
just east of the station for the run towards the city centre via the
Hbf. The signalling is such that about 75 seconds after a train has
left one platform the one on the opposite face can also leave. These
trains are quick - the Baureihe 423 is an articulated unit with 4 body
sections carried on 5 bogies, 4 of which are powered. It has an empty
mass of 105 tonnes with an hourly rating of 2400kW which gives a
power-to-weight ratio somewhat better than that of a Deltic running
light! They also have /lots/ of doors - each body section has 3 pairs
of swing-plug doors so half the side of the train opens.

Trying to run a 24tph service with only 2 doors per side in a longer
coach body, single sided platforms and a lower power-to-weight ratio
seems to me to be hard way to earn a living.


One of the problems with the Jubilee is some stations are quite quick
(Waterloo East) and others are slow because of passenger volumes
(Canary Wharf, LB, Waterloo).

How will the spread be on Thameslink?


--
Nick

--
Nick


--
Robert

On Nov 7, 2:26 pm, Robert wrote:


At the risk of being pedantic the S-Bahn in Munich schedules 30 trains
per hour


I have commuted for short periods on the Munchen U-bahn and S-bahn and
was very familiar with it, although I've not been there in a while to
seriously use it apart from the airport links.

Nowhere on the Mch S-bahn stammstrecke (the core section) are there
junctions of any sort on the twin track core - only at the ends. The
equivallent scenario for Thameslink is no junctions at all anywhere
between West Hampstead and Blackfriars *and* to make the analogy
correct both of those locations would have to have 4 each dedicated TL
platforms.

On top of that, Mch S-bahn is equipped with LZB. AFAIK this is unique
among German S-bahn lines ... Mch Pasing to Mch Ost was equipped for
LZB operation from 12/2004 ... IIRC it was set up for 28 TPH although
might have been tweaked since.

For those who do not know, LZB ''Linienzugbeeinflussung'' generically
is a transmission based train control signal system. It exists in
several forms on both very high speed lines and dense close headway
metro lines ... no lineside signals, cab signals only, and operates
by setting target points based on location of preceding train or state
of the ''guideway''.

I am loathe to post a wikipedia link but this is about the only
overview I know of (in German but you can wiki translate it)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linienzugbeeinflussung


AFAIW such grandiose signalling systems do not form part of Thameslink
Program ... it will retain conventional trackside aspects with TPWS
and AWS. ISTR Roger Ford referred to this in MR a couple of years back
(although things might have moved since then).


If I thought Thameslink was getting LZB then I'd not have made the
remarks I did.

BTW ... the Jubilee (and Northern, Piccadilly) line signals upgrade is
to LZB ... Seltrac S40 is an LZB ... it even says LZB on the processor
cabinets/

--
Nick

On Nov 7, 11:46 pm, D7666 wrote:

correction

If I thought Thameslink was getting LZB then I'd not have made the
remarks I did.


If I thought Thameslink was getting LZB or any other form of tbtc/cbtc
then I'd not have made the remarks I did.

--
Nick

On 7 Nov, 18:46, D7666 wrote:
AFAIW such grandiose signalling systems do not form part of Thameslink
Program ... it will retain conventional trackside aspects with TPWS
and AWS. ISTR Roger Ford referred to this in MR a couple of years back
(although things might have moved since then).

ATO of some form in the central section is in the spec for the new
trains. They're also meant to have three doors per side.

(And Crossrail is also meant to have ATO, while we're on the subject)

U

On Nov 8, 1:26 am, Mr Thant
wrote:

ATO of some form in the central section is in the spec for the new
trains. They're also meant to have three doors per side.


Yes I have read that.

I do not understand how you can spec a train for ATO when it is not
known what that ATO system is.

AFAIW no form of ATO has been decided for trackside. There are ATO
signalling systems that use inductions loops [like Seltrac / LZB] - or
by other radio communication - or by coded track circuits - to name
three types.

All different track:train interface, all different on board train
eqpt. Thales (ex Alcatel), Alstom, Bombardier, Hitachi. GE (of USA),
Invensys (a.k.a. Westinghouse) all offer different ATO products ...
and those are the ones I can think of without researching it; possibly
Siemens and ABB do as well. The current Jubilee line modifications on
1996 stock do not use the orginal Westinghouse kit that the trains
still carried from the original aborted project, they get new docking
loops and antennae and processors and cabling and so on. All different
kit.

I might be wrong, but I do not believe they have drawn up a spec for
the trackside part of ATO yet ? At least not in the public domain.
There is then the complication in the tendering process that a train
maker will probably only offer ''in house'' ATO .

Or is it a composite spec for traisn and trackside ... but if so then
there are one hell of a lot pf pages missing from stuff in the public
domain.

--
Nick

On 2008-11-07 23:46:29 +0000, D7666 said:

On Nov 7, 2:26 pm, Robert wrote:


At the risk of being pedantic the S-Bahn in Munich schedules 30 trains
per hour


I have commuted for short periods on the Munchen U-bahn and S-bahn and
was very familiar with it, although I've not been there in a while to
seriously use it apart from the airport links.

Nowhere on the Mch S-bahn stammstrecke (the core section) are there
junctions of any sort on the twin track core - only at the ends. The
equivallent scenario for Thameslink is no junctions at all anywhere
between West Hampstead and Blackfriars *and* to make the analogy
correct both of those locations would have to have 4 each dedicated TL
platforms.

It's a bit more complicated than that. I think that you will find that
the Stammstrecke is defined as the section from Pasing to
Munich-Ostbahnhof, a distance of marginally over 7 miles; it is not
just the central tunnel section. (By my calculation I make West
Hampstead to Blackfriars a bit over 5 1/2 miles). Working from the
west, 4 routes come together at Pasing, which has 4 S-Bahn platforms
paired by direction; it is then a two track route right through to
Munich-Ostbahnhof with grade separated junctions at:

(i) Laim where the S1 and S2 lines join and leave which has 1 eastbound
island platform with 2 faces and 1 westbound platform. The eastbound
junction points are just to the east of the island and the westbound
junction points are just to the west of the platform.

(ii) Donnersbergerbrücke which has 2 island platforms - 1 eastbound and
1 westbound allowing cross platform interchange for passengers between
the Bayerische Oberland Bahn (BOB) trains and the S-Bahn. The S7 coming
from the south, which shares tracks with the BOB trains, also joins and
leaves the Stammstrecke here. There is another very steep grade
separated junction just to the east of Donnerbergerbrücke which allows
the BOB trains (which are DMUs) to run into the Hbf, i.e.
Donnersbergerbrücke has grade separated junctions at both ends of the
platforms permitting the platforms to be paired by direction. (The BOB
serves towns south of Munich in the foothills of the Alps).

The next station to the east is Hackerbrücke which is simple island
platform. The central tunnel starts just to the east and runs to just
west of the Ostbahnhof which has 2 islands for the S-Bahn. The inner
faces are used for the S5 and S6 which reverse there (and head to the
south on a bridge over the tracks into and out of the tunnel) and the
outer platforms for the 3 routes continuing to the east and north. The
S7 terminates here.

You are, of course, correct in saying that the stations at each end of
the Stammstrecke have 4 dedicated S-Bahn platforms to cope with the
traffic density, but there are junctions in between. It works because
it has been properly designed.


On top of that, Mch S-bahn is equipped with LZB. AFAIK this is unique
among German S-bahn lines ... Mch Pasing to Mch Ost was equipped for
LZB operation from 12/2004 ... IIRC it was set up for 28 TPH although
might have been tweaked since.

For those who do not know, LZB ''Linienzugbeeinflussung'' generically
is a transmission based train control signal system. It exists in
several forms on both very high speed lines and dense close headway
metro lines ... no lineside signals, cab signals only, and operates
by setting target points based on location of preceding train or state
of the ''guideway''.

I am loathe to post a wikipedia link but this is about the only
overview I know of (in German but you can wiki translate it)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linienzugbeeinflussung

Absolutely, the LZB is /very/ impressive. I'm sure the Munich system
couldn't work as it does without it. Trains close up to about 20 or 30
metres separation; if a train is stationary in the platform you can see
the front of the next one just inside the tunnel. When a train restarts
the next train can be entering a platform before the rear of the
previous one has cleared it. It's even better if you stand behind the
driver and look over his/her shoulder... The first time I did it I
flinched - the train in front is so close it /can't/ be right!



AFAIW such grandiose signalling systems do not form part of Thameslink
Program ... it will retain conventional trackside aspects with TPWS
and AWS. ISTR Roger Ford referred to this in MR a couple of years back
(although things might have moved since then).

A pity, when you consider that Munich, a city of 1.3m inhabitants, with
probably as many again living within 20 miles or so, gets a grown-up
railway while London, the powerhouse of the country with over 10m, gets
a cobbled together Hornby set.



If I thought Thameslink was getting LZB then I'd not have made the
remarks I did.

BTW ... the Jubilee (and Northern, Piccadilly) line signals upgrade is
to LZB ... Seltrac S40 is an LZB ... it even says LZB on the processor
cabinets/

Then there is hope for us yet!


--
Robert

On Nov 8, 2:33 pm, Robert wrote:


It's a bit more complicated than that. I think that you will find that
the Stammstrecke is defined as the section from Pasing to
Munich-Ostbahnhof, a distance of marginally over 7 miles; it is not
just the central tunnel section.

Where did I say it was the tunnel section ?

I never used the word tunnel. I said core ... and I know Stamssstrecke
is Pasing - Ost.

However, I did err in that the two track section is as you say Ost -
Donnerburgerbrucke. I had the latter station in my minds eye.

signals upgrade is
to LZB ... Seltrac S40 is an LZB ...
Then there is hope for us yet!

There had better be ... ;o)

--
Nick

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...
On 7 Nov, 18:46, D7666 wrote:
AFAIW such grandiose signalling systems do not form part of Thameslink
Program ... it will retain conventional trackside aspects with TPWS
and AWS. ISTR Roger Ford referred to this in MR a couple of years back
(although things might have moved since then).

ATO of some form in the central section is in the spec for the new
trains. They're also meant to have three doors per side.

(And Crossrail is also meant to have ATO, while we're on the subject)


Where are you getting that new info about the doors? Sounds highly sensible,
but the DfT's Thameslink EMU spec on their website mentions (para 11.3) 16
doors per 162m (8 car) train...

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/th...levespecif.pdf

Paul S

On Nov 8, 3:10 am, D7666 wrote:


On Nov 8, 1:26 am, Mr Thant
wrote:

ATO of some form in the central section is in the spec for the new
trains.



http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/th...levespecif.pdf

8.3

Does not state the trains will be ATO fitted. It merely states that
trains controls layout and systems to be designed around an ATO system
i.e. leave space for it.

--
Nick

In uk.transport.london message 9cccdf44-e251-4388-8dfe-403e65407bc8@i20
g2000prf.googlegroups.com, Fri, 7 Nov 2008 15:46:29, D7666
posted:

I am loathe to post a wikipedia link but this is about the only
overview I know of (in German but you can wiki translate it)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linienzugbeeinflussung

Wiki translate? where's that?

Wikipedia does have half a dozen articles on the subject, but they are
not necessarily direct translations.

--
(c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.

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