On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:50:18 +0100, "Ben Nunn"
wrote:

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Jonn Elledge
), in message
who said:

I agree the whole thing looks politically motivated, but in this case
I don't think that's really a bad thing. The eastern end of the
Thames really does need regenerating, and Canary Wharf could do with
another line to the centre of town as I believe the existing ones are
already pushing capacity.

Well the Jubilee Line is just a tad busy in the peaks!

What's more, the Shenfield line is one of
the busiest stretches of national rail in the London area (there are
12 trains per hour as far as Gidea Park in the peaks). I always felt
that Crossrail should effectively be a slightly larger-scale tube
line, rather than a way for long distance trains to cross London.

Well it is a hybrid service isn't it like the RER in Paris or S Bahn in
Germany. It combines longer distance trips with high frequency and
central area / cross conurbation access.

After all, does anyone really want to go from Southend to Reading?

Who knows? I strongly suspect that people in Southend would not object
to a direct service to Heathrow. I am also pretty sure that business in
the Thames Valley would have no objection whatsoever to being directly
linked to the Thames Gateway, Eurostar stations or Canary Wharf.

They should keep the central part of it as planned with all existing stops,
but use the services to form part of a much bigger plan.

Crossrail services should couple to existing trains either side of the
central area, allowing for fast intercity routes.
[snip]
Basically express intercity services,
but running /through/ London and stopping within.

I understand your proposition and in some ways support it. However there
are a few issues.

1. Intercity services are not the same as suburban or even regional
ones. Completely different timings, rolling stock performance and
design. Far more people with luggage who all want a seat. Not exactly
compatible with people cramming on at Tottenham Court Rd to get to
Ilford or the modern day equivalent - people from Coventry or
Wolverhampton cramming into Virgin West Coast or Cross Country services
to commute to Birmingham - absolute hell.

2. There is the issue of demand for such services. I could see merit in
services to Ipswich to Reading but possibly no further.

3. The capacity restrictions from having trains couple and decouple at
both ends of the tunnel would cause considerable issues about getting
24tph through the central tunnel section.

4. On a previous piece of work I had to explain in words of one
syllable to a consultant that it was not practical to run a Virgin
Trains diesel train through the north side of the Circle Line and then
impose ticketing and boarding restrictions at say Baker St and expect
London commuters wanting to get home to comply with them! I could see
similar issues in your proposal.

I think what could be better would be a properly structured set of Inter
City services running from terminal stations (which by rights should
have more capacity post Crossrail) but with strategic stops at Crossrail
interchanges. This provides the option for interchange to a whole range
of destinations and modes and could me made to work properly with some
signalling and platform investment at key locations.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Aylesbury - Shoeburyness x30

That route could be handy!
--
To reply direct, remove NOSPAM and replace with railwaysonline
For Train Information, The Latest News & Best photos around check out
http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk

Ben Nunn wrote:

They should keep the central part of it as planned with all existing
stops, but use the services to form part of a much bigger plan.

Crossrail services should couple to existing trains either side of the
central area, allowing for fast intercity routes.

E.g.

Norwich-Ipswich-Colchester-Stratford

Five minute wait, train divides into regular Liverpool street
intercity, and our sections hooks up to crossrail shuttle.

Call at all stations to Ealing Broadway.

Five minute wait, train divides, crossrail shuttle goes back, and our
section joins with an intercity out of Paddington.

Slough-Reading-Oxford-Swindon-Bristol-Cardiff


NOw what the **** is wrong with that? Basically express intercity
services, but running /through/ London and stopping within.

Southend to Birmingham.
Cambridge to Plymouth.
Ashford to Windsor.

Why the **** not?

'Cos it won't work for all sorts of reasons. For a start, you can't run a
12-trains-per-hour Crossrail service (Ealing and Stratford frequencies as
currently published) if you stop for 5 minutes to uncouple/reverse/couple or
whatever crazy manoeuvre you are planning at Ealing Broadway and Stratford.
An operational disaster if ever I saw one.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Jonn Elledge wrote:

After all, does anyone really want to go from Southend to Reading?

Not many. But Reading direct to the City would be useful for a lot of
people

"

I agree the whole thing looks politically motivated, but in this case I
don't think that's really a bad thing. The eastern end of the Thames really
does need regenerating, and Canary Wharf could do with another line to the
centre of town as I believe the existing ones are already pushing capacity.


There is quite a large area of South-East London that seems to be
missing out on transport improvements - from Bromley in the south
therough Sidcup and Eltham (where I live) up to Bexleyheath in the
north. Some maps add insult to injury by placing the "key to symbols"
box over this area.

Grenwich Council's transport policy involves campaigning for
improvements in the northern, Thamesside part of the Borough while
ignoring the needs of the south. The political map of the Borough
might suggest why this is the case.

Does anyone have any suggestions for improving transport in the
Cinderella parts of SE London? Would it be a realistic long-term
project to lobby for a new tube line starting say at Sidcup and
running through Eltham, Kidbrooke and Charlton to link with the
Jubilee at North Greenwich or Canary Wharf and then continue through
Hackney to finish at Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale? This would
greatly improve transport links to Docklands and really help shift
Lonson's centre of gravity to the East.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Paul Corfield
), in message
who said:

I understand your proposition and in some ways support it. However
there are a few issues.

1. Intercity services are not the same as suburban or even regional
ones. Completely different timings, rolling stock performance and
design. Far more people with luggage who all want a seat. Not exactly
compatible with people cramming on at Tottenham Court Rd to get to
Ilford or the modern day equivalent - people from Coventry or
Wolverhampton cramming into Virgin West Coast or Cross Country
services
to commute to Birmingham - absolute hell.


I guess I'm coming at this from a different perspective - trying to get
through London (e.g. from a place on one side to a place on the other side)
is a nightmare.

Paying for two seperate intercity journeys and a tube is expensive, and the
most frustrating bit is the wait in London.

The other day I made an Ipswich to Preston journey.

Time between my approach into Liverpool Street, and my departure out of
Euston? 65 minutes.

I don't think a 'lost hour' in London is atypical for such a journey. When I
first saw the crossrail proposals, I thought that this was intended to
remove such a ridiculous anomaly, in the same way that Thameslink has with
routes such as Brighton to Bedford.


I think what could be better would be a properly structured set of
Inter City services running from terminal stations (which by rights
should
have more capacity post Crossrail) but with strategic stops at
Crossrail interchanges. This provides the option for interchange to a
whole range
of destinations and modes and could me made to work properly with some
signalling and platform investment at key locations.


I think this would work better with Orbirail, if that ever gets off the
ground, thereby avoiding the need to waste time in Central London.

BTN

On 9 Oct 2003 02:20:37 -0700 in uk.transport.london, (Gary
Jenkins) tapped out on the keyboard:


There is quite a large area of South-East London that seems to be
missing out on transport improvements - from Bromley in the south
therough Sidcup and Eltham (where I live) up to Bexleyheath in the
north. Some maps add insult to injury by placing the "key to symbols"
box over this area.

Grenwich Council's transport policy involves campaigning for
improvements in the northern, Thamesside part of the Borough while
ignoring the needs of the south. The political map of the Borough
might suggest why this is the case.

Does anyone have any suggestions for improving transport in the
Cinderella parts of SE London? Would it be a realistic long-term
project to lobby for a new tube line starting say at Sidcup and
running through Eltham, Kidbrooke and Charlton to link with the
Jubilee at North Greenwich or Canary Wharf and then continue through
Hackney to finish at Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale? This would
greatly improve transport links to Docklands and really help shift
Lonson's centre of gravity to the East.

There was an opportunity 15 years or so ago when it was proposed to route the
CTRL through SE London which would have led to improvements to commuter
services. But such was hysterical NIMBYism that the CTRL has benefited
Stratford instead.

--
John Youles Norwich England UK
(recently of Beckenham)
j dot y.o.u.l.e.s at n.t.l.w.o.r.l.d dot c.o.m

"Gary Jenkins" wrote in message
om...

Would it be a realistic long-term
project to lobby for a new tube line starting say
at Sidcup and running through Eltham, Kidbrooke
and Charlton to link with the Jubilee at North
Greenwich or Canary Wharf and then continue through
Hackney to finish at Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale?

That depends on who you are, but I doubt it.

IMO the best chance for improved transport in Eltham lies in getting a
branch or diversion of Greenwich Waterfront Transit. The current GWT
alignment was cooked up a long time before anyone was talking about sending
Crossrail to the Southeast. I wonder if the business case for the route west
of Woolwich still stacks up? If not, perhaps GWT should run Thamesmead -
Woolwich - Eltham - Bromley ( - Beckenham?) instead.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

On 9 Oct 2003 02:20:37 -0700, (Gary Jenkins) wrote:

Does anyone have any suggestions for improving transport in the
Cinderella parts of SE London? Would it be a realistic long-term
project to lobby for a new tube line starting say at Sidcup and
running through Eltham, Kidbrooke and Charlton to link with the
Jubilee at North Greenwich or Canary Wharf and then continue through
Hackney to finish at Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale? This would
greatly improve transport links to Docklands and really help shift
Lonson's centre of gravity to the East.

Interesting that you think you need a Tube Line to solve your problems.
Given the distance to places like Sidcup I'm not sure this would be a
universally acceptable solution. Your route also forces everyone heading
to the Centre to change trains onto lines that are already overcrowded
at peak times.

I'm of the view that the lines in South East London need to be
resignalled and then have the service redesigned into a form of S Bahn
type service. You would need much better interchange and higher
frequency services and possibly a compromise on service patterns - there
is the current conflict between getting people to the West End (CX /
Vic) and to the City (L Bdg / C St) from the same places.

With some ingenuity and planning it would be possible to run some
services through the East London Line and possibly via Thameslink -
admittedly there would be compromises. Beyond that you are probably
talking about RER style tunnels between Victoria or Charing Cross and
Euston - not sure anyone is planning how Tottenham Court Rd would cope
with 2 Tube Lines and 3 Crossrail type lines running through it though!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

(Gary Jenkins) wrote in message . com...

Does anyone have any suggestions for improving transport in the
Cinderella parts of SE London? Would it be a realistic long-term
project to lobby for a new tube line starting say at Sidcup and
running through Eltham, Kidbrooke and Charlton to link with the
Jubilee at North Greenwich or Canary Wharf and then continue through
Hackney to finish at Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale? This would
greatly improve transport links to Docklands and really help shift
London's centre of gravity to the East.

Some random thoughts...

Making sure everyone from Eltham/Kidbrooke *didn't* to crawl up to
North Greenwich would be a start, although this seems to be the way
Greenwich Council wants it. The bus network up to North Greenwich
cannot cope with the number of people who use it already, without
bringing in more buses from more areas.

If the Bakerloo Line wasn't so packed, I'd suggest extending the
Bakerloo Line out from the Elephant towards Lewisham and Eltham and
beyond. Or how about simply improving the current rail services? I'm
amazed no-one has put more capacity in at London Bridge, and that
Borough Market still stands.

Thamesmead needs a heavy rail connection to central London of its own,
not a weedy bus/tram link to Woolwich or Greenwich. I'd suggest
running a branch off the C2C line from Fenchurch Street to Barking/
Upminster to create a fast link to the City. Is there the room for
such a thing?

Darryl