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Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
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Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
In article ,
says... What about all the other people???? Do you forget the miners strikes when good ol MT decided to close all of the pits When did MT decide to close all the pits? so we imported cheap coal from Africa. Now most of the pits have closed Africas coal price has risen dramatically, No. South Africa, which produces about 95% of African coal did get more expensive in the last year, but that is from a very low base and SA coal is still cheaper than it was in 1996. As indeed it appears to be from all non-EU sources. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/eustmimp.html oh yeah she was an absolute genius! Any 5 year old could have seen that coming If Britain had producted a major world market share of coal, the loss of the pits could have indeed raised prices. However, since UK production was 2.5% of global tonnage in 1992 and 0.7% by 2001, it seems deeply unlikely that this was the case here. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/table53.html The pits were shut because the coal they produced was too expensive and recoverable reserves were only 0.2% of world totals. The loss of related jobs is sad and painful. But it merely extends and prolongs the pain for both miners and taxpayers to artificially support an industry which is doomed. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/table82.html rgds David |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
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Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
In article , Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Chris Jones" typed Look at a map of Germany, and compare it to a map of this country. They have motorways all over the place, yet they still have plenty of countryside to enjoy. They have *much* greater area of land and a similar population though. Erm... Germany - 349,223 sq km and 82,398,326 UK - 241,590 sq km and 60,094,648 (From the CIA World Factbook website) Population densities of 235,9 people/sq km vs. 248,7 Not really a difference as huge as you seem to be suggesting. Niklas -- I was in the grocery store. I saw a sign that said "pet supplies". So I did. Then I went outside and saw a sign that said "compact cars". -- Steven Wright |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 12:54:15 +0000, Huge wrote:
Particularly in the case of Government mandated monopolies. Well red tape and government interference is always bad for prosperity, But thats a whole other story |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:39:01 +0000, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
(From the CIA World Factbook website) The anti-car brigade here don't believe in the CIA factbook |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
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Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
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Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
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Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 12:27:14 +0000, Paul Weaver
wrote: In terms of motorway per area Germany has over twice as much. The Netherlands over 4 times as much. Which is an amusing rebuttal of the anti growth mobs lies considering the population density of the Benelux region. One would expect no better in the UK given the way the planning system has been hijacked by vested interests. The trusts which own great swathes of our cities do not want the value of their holdings fall, as what happened in the interwar years when over 1.5 million new houses were built in suburbs up and down the country. Of course this didn't suit labour either as home owners were less likely to vote socialist, hence the nationalisation of the planning system with the Town and Country planning act in 1947. Until whitehall interference in planning is removed by force and handed back to local authorities nothing will change. greg -- $ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@' The Following is a true story..... Only the names have been changed to protect the guilty. |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:53:49 +0000, Paul Weaver
wrote: On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:39:01 +0000, Niklas Karlsson wrote: (From the CIA World Factbook website) The anti-car brigade here don't believe in the CIA factbook Its all part of a giant conspiracy doncha know. greg -- $ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@' The Following is a true story..... Only the names have been changed to protect the guilty. |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:02:52 +0000, Greg Hennessy wrote:
On 2 Nov 2003 11:32:26 GMT, (Huge) wrote: Less than 3% of this country is built on *in* *total*. And most of that is housing. And around 15% of the area within 1 hours commute from central London. Of course if one was to believe the CPRE nimbys, one would think that all of the SE was like downtown Hong Kong. I heard/read an interesting Fact on one of ken's propaganda things that London was about 40% green area. Is that true? |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:47:09 +0000, Paul Weaver
wrote: I heard/read an interesting Fact on one of ken's propaganda things that London was about 40% green area. Is that true? I could well believe it. What the luftwaffe didn't get round to flattening, post war idiocy in the name of 'progress' surely did. While the rest of europe rebuilt its cities street by street to the way they were on 1st sept 1939. Here we had the deliberate destruction of whole communities to make way for tower blocks. Take a wander round the centre of Plymouth sometime, or gaze upon the **** hole that is Stevenage to see what policy that gave us. What's worse are the worthies who demand that such monstrosities be 'listed'. greg -- $ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@' The Following is a true story..... Only the names have been changed to protect the guilty. |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
In message , Chris Jones
writes Surely new roads giving people new possibilities to travel, meet friends and relatives, and go for days out should be celebrated? After all, that means our standard of living has increased, surely. New roads promise the idea of emancipation, when they really only offer a new version of hell. 1. Any new road is quickly filled by drivers doing exactly what you're doing; taking advantage of a supposedly easier way to travel from 'here' to 'there'. 2. New roads cost. Not just the building cost, but all those other factors: loss of trade to local shops, loss of views, communities cut off from each other, and my favourite bete-noire - the bloody noise! There are vast areas of Southern England where it's now impossible to get away from the sound of cars and motor-bikes screaming along at top speed (a jam on the M25 now provides a gentle respite for the communities alongside it - say anywhere up to 3 miles away). 3. Older road-planing cost us loads. The way roads are/were costed was to value the land, meaning it was always cheaper to go though areas which weren't farmland or housing. Trouble was, in these over-crowded islands, that meant the areas that were cheapest were also the areas that benefited least from roads: common land, woodland, SSI, etc. Still, it gives a nice view from the car, doesn't it? -- Martin @ Strawberry Hill |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
Usenet wrote:
In message , Chris Jones writes Surely new roads giving people new possibilities to travel, meet friends and relatives, and go for days out should be celebrated? After all, that means our standard of living has increased, surely. New roads promise the idea of emancipation, when they really only offer a new version of hell. 1. Any new road is quickly filled by drivers doing exactly what you're doing; taking advantage of a supposedly easier way to travel from 'here' to 'there'. 2. New roads cost. Not just the building cost, but all those other factors: loss of trade to local shops, loss of views, communities cut off from each other, and my favourite bete-noire - the bloody noise! There are vast areas of Southern England where it's now impossible to get away from the sound of cars and motor-bikes screaming along at top speed (a jam on the M25 now provides a gentle respite for the communities alongside it - say anywhere up to 3 miles away). 3. Older road-planing cost us loads. The way roads are/were costed was to value the land, meaning it was always cheaper to go though areas which weren't farmland or housing. Trouble was, in these over-crowded islands, that meant the areas that were cheapest were also the areas that benefited least from roads: common land, woodland, SSI, etc. Still, it gives a nice view from the car, doesn't it? Please state the roads that you believe shouldn't have been built. Then propose the idea to the residents of the towns that have been bypassed. I can say with confidence that you will not get an enthusiastic reception. -- http://www.speedlimit.org.uk "If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect." |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"iantheengineer" wrote in message
... To continue to build roads will continue the problem. The answer is puvblic transport, but public transport cannot cater for all journeys and therefore over time journeys will need to become more corridored. For example go into any city during the am peak and the tidality of the flow is there to be seen. IF we were to get all of the people from their cars onto public transport, or even better living nearer to the workplace, the congestion would be far less. cars. Without cars on the urban road network public transport would be faster and more reliable. How fast would urban public transport be with no cars on the road? (and no vans, cycles, taxis etc. if that helps). |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Paul Weaver" wrote in message
.. . I heard/read an interesting Fact on one of ken's propaganda things that London was about 40% green area. Is that true? If you keep a good watch on the approach to Heathrow from the east, you will see a surprising amount of green areas, even near the centre. -- Terry Harper http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Paul Weaver" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:32:48 +0000, iantheengineer wrote: Out of this sprang the unions who fought for rights that the blues now take for granted. Without struggle pain and suffereing on the shoulders of others they would not have their nice cushly lifestyles now. However they seem to believe that this would have happened anyway, from what catalyst??? You dont get it do you. Don't like your job or conditions? Hand in your notice and LEVAE. If everyone did that (of their own free will) then companies have to change. If they don't then they have no employees to run the business, and the recently departed can start their own business. Unions force the majority to bow to the whims of the minority by intimidation - something that should be illegal. Okay I wish I was so deluded |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
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Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"cookie" wrote in message
... "Paul Weaver" wrote in message ... On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:46:18 +0000, Chris Jones wrote: It took 15 years of Hell before Junction 8 on the M62 was finished. The Trafford Centre fares better, however the metro doesn't go there. The Trafford Centre only received planning permission on the basis that the Greater Manchester LRT System (Metrolink) would reach the Dumplington complex *before* the centre opened, in order to reduce the traffic chaos. Either they've broken the rules (perhaps this was changed after the public inquiry) or they widened the M63/M60 instead? They certainly didn't widen the motorway, just the roundabouts - the Stretford stretch is now being widened, but that was the last remaining original 2-lane section of M62 anyway. Metrolink going to Dumplington is basically over Manchester councils' dead bodies, even when Peel Developments has tens of million of pounds to put towards it. How can they hope to attract business and shops Like Harvey Nicks to the City Centre when there is a huge shopping mall in Trafford? |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Paul Weaver" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:32:48 +0000, iantheengineer wrote: Out of this sprang the unions who fought for rights that the blues now take for granted. Without struggle pain and suffereing on the shoulders of others they would not have their nice cushly lifestyles now. However they seem to believe that this would have happened anyway, from what catalyst??? You dont get it do you. Don't like your job or conditions? Hand in your notice and LEVAE. If everyone did that (of their own free will) then companies have to change. If they don't then they have no employees to run the business, and the recently departed can start their own business. Unions force the majority to bow to the whims of the minority by intimidation - something that should be illegal. LEVAE? When unions were formed it was not possible just to leave a job. Mostly a single employer employed all people within an area so alternate employemnt was naigh on impossible. Unions gave individuals the strength to act as one, its a known fact that there is strength in numbers. If unions are so bad why do we still have so many and each with so many members???? |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Chris Jones" wrote in message ... Building roads does not solve the problem, it helps locally but creates problems elsewhere. Thats why we are where we arte today with huge congestion. Then how do you explain the fact that France for example has very little congestion, and has built something like 4 times the amount of motorway that we have? Surely if what you say is true, all of their new motorways would have filled up with traffic instantly and they'd be just as gridlocked as we are. France has a different geographic population split, they are far less spread with concentrations of individuals in cities and very little in between, thus a lesser need to travel. The UK is far more spread out, and travel has throuigh this spread become more necessary, nbut only through a failing of the planning system over the past years. |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Chris Jones" wrote in message ... Your view is certainly not shared by me, yes she may have buiilt roads, but look at what happens road building leads to more traffic, this has been researched. Perhaps building roads does lead to more traffic - for example, before the M25 was built, I would be far less likely to travel from Birmingham to Kent, simply because of the hassle of getting through London. Surely new roads giving people new possibilities to travel, meet friends and relatives, and go for days out should be celebrated? After all, that means our standard of living has increased, surely. I agree in some ways, freedom of choice is good, but the problem is that now our choices are available we are taking them not just for odd days out but for a daily commute where previously we wouldnt have considered it. |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Paul Weaver" wrote in message ... On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:22:10 +0000, Chris Jones wrote: Surely new roads giving people new possibilities to travel, meet friends and relatives, and go for days out should be celebrated? After all, that means our standard of living has increased, surely. No the Anti car brigade think that we should live work and shop within walking distance, and should never travel more then 10 miles except on a holiday (via train) to Brighton. Bit like the 19th century. Traveling over land from the Mediterranean to the Channel in 12 hours is evil. Not at all I have a car my wife has a car we enjoy days out in the car. The continentals actually have higher levels of car ownership, just they use them less. It is about reducing the need for normal journeys by car ie the daily commute. |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"iantheengineer" wrote in message
... Not at all I have a car my wife has a car we enjoy days out in the car. The continentals actually have higher levels of car ownership, just they use them less. Can you give details of that lower car use than the UK ? |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Huge" wrote in message ... "Chris Jones" writes: Your view is certainly not shared by me, yes she may have buiilt roads, but look at what happens road building leads to more traffic, this has been researched. Perhaps building roads does lead to more traffic And even if it does, so what? Building more hospitals leads to more patients. Is anyone objecting to that? -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.huge.org.uk/transport/FAQ.html [email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk] Ding dong get the picture!!!!!! Have you seen the pollution that comes from a car. The congestion created by loads of extra cars which then creates more pollution per pcu?? So lets say we build a new road around London, it gives extra capacity and enables you to travel around London at 70mph wow fantastic!!! Whats going to happen. All those people who have avoided this journey will start to weigh up the fact that they can get a bette / better paid job further away, and due to the new road get there quicker. So they buy a car and start a new job. But where do they live ahh West London for example and the need to get to the East so they set off, but ohh theyt have to travel through their local town first, and oh then along that A road before they get to the new super duper highway. Have the cogs started turning yet, have the lights come on, is someone coming home at last????? Then when they get near to the journeys end they have to travel down the B road to get to the building where they need to park in a space all day, only to 8 hours later do exactly the reverse. So lets see more cars on the new roads, oh and more cars on the a road , oh and the b road, oh and yes another car parking space required, and not forgetting the pollution emitted by the vehicle and its effect in increasing the congestion..... Oh and the Sallys friend thinks what a good idea, and then Jane.. and then John Are we getting there...do I need to draw a picture for you. |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Usenet" wrote in message ... In message , Chris Jones writes Surely new roads giving people new possibilities to travel, meet friends and relatives, and go for days out should be celebrated? After all, that means our standard of living has increased, surely. New roads promise the idea of emancipation, when they really only offer a new version of hell. 1. Any new road is quickly filled by drivers doing exactly what you're doing; taking advantage of a supposedly easier way to travel from 'here' to 'there'. 2. New roads cost. Not just the building cost, but all those other factors: loss of trade to local shops, loss of views, communities cut off from each other, and my favourite bete-noire - the bloody noise! There are vast areas of Southern England where it's now impossible to get away from the sound of cars and motor-bikes screaming along at top speed (a jam on the M25 now provides a gentle respite for the communities alongside it - say anywhere up to 3 miles away). 3. Older road-planing cost us loads. The way roads are/were costed was to value the land, meaning it was always cheaper to go though areas which weren't farmland or housing. Trouble was, in these over-crowded islands, that meant the areas that were cheapest were also the areas that benefited least from roads: common land, woodland, SSI, etc. Still, it gives a nice view from the car, doesn't it? -- Martin @ Strawberry Hill Fantastic somone else who gets the picture. Over to you Ive given up trying to instill some sense into these morons. Good luck, fight hard and clean!!! |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"PeterE" wrote in message ... iantheengineer wrote: "PeterE" wrote in message But without the decisions taken under the Thatcher adminstrations, Britain's roads would be far worse than they are now (which doesn't bear thinking about, really). Your view is certainly not shared by me, yes she may have buiilt roads, but look at what happens road building leads to more traffic, this has been researched. Those Romans have a lot to answer for. Increasing capacity increases demand - so what? Which political party was John Major from???? I am not some kneejerk defender of the Conservative Party. The Major government was disastrous for transport in the UK - remember they were also responsible for the botched privatisation of the railways. Thanks for corraborating, why did Major cancel the schemes???? Oh yes no money It was a short-term saving which is now proving to have serious long-term effects. In the meantime most local highway sections have never been so busy, the only problem is getting trained staff( most local HAs have a backlog of work). A problem once more proliferated in the 80s with the scrapping of apprenticeships and the introduction of the YTS. If they didn't waste so much money building humps they would find it easier to keep the roads in good repair. -- http://www.speedlimit.org.uk "If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect." # I thought your voice was muffled you really do talk through your arse! Speed humps are used to prevent speeding idiots and save lives. Do you REALLY think that a local authority with limited funds would waste it n putting in humps for the sake of it. Come on now get real!! |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"cookie" wrote in message ... "iantheengineer" wrote in message ... "Chris Jones" wrote in message ... Just look at the roads around any Ikea store, for instance. Absolute rubbish. all large developments require transport impact assessments. The DEVELOPER pays for these to be carrioed out and the are examined by the councils or the prevailinbg highway authority. all junctioons and link roads are examined for capacity and the impact that traffic will have. The examinations are robust with factors of safety built into them. If the junctions start to cause a proble or reach 85% of the capacity within the (normally) 10 years following development. the DEVELOPER pays for the improvement works. I should know I write TIAs on regular basis Does this apply where the development and the access road lie within two different authorities? I quote the case of IKEA Leeds, which is actually in Kirklees (Huddersfield), and the main access point of the M62/M621 comes under Leeds City Council. Yes it always applies the study should undertake a materiality test which states that any junction / link road affected by more than 5% or other LPA recommendation then the junction must be examined and analysed in detail. Large developments like IKEAs ( incidentally the worst traffic generator by far) should be examined very closely. TThey are cross boundary and will be examined by both councils hth |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Chris Jones" wrote in message ... To continue to build roads will continue the problem. The answer is puvblic transport, but public transport cannot cater for all journeys and therefore over time journeys will need to become more corridored. What exactly do you mean by "more corridored"? Most long distance journeys are already corridored into the rail and motorway networks. For example go into any city during the am peak and the tidality of the flow is there to be seen. Yes, commuting into city centres is probably the only thing that public transport *can* cater for. Without cars on the urban road network public transport would be faster and more reliable. Indeed it would. However, the current situation we have is that public transport routes rarely cater for where you want to go. For example, to do my route to work I would have to get a bus all the way into the city centre, then another one out again at a different angle - taking well over an hour, when my destination is just 7 miles away but in a direction not catered for by the bus network. We know that building more roads is a) environmentally damaging How so? Surely free flowing traffic is using fuel more efficiently, and thus polluting less, than a traffic jam with thousands of cars hardly moving at all? b) increases usage so essentially provides no longterm greater net capacity. Usage does increase, however that usage tends to come off local residential roads, thus making life far more pleasant for residents. For example, you could argue that the M60 completion in Manchester filled up to capacity almost on the day it opened, which may be true - but if you look at the bigger picture and how much quieter local streets in the area are, surely it's worth it. So where do you stop, when the whole country is one great network of asphalt??? Don't be silly, we're nowhere near that. I don't think the motorway network even takes up 1% of the land in this country, there's plenty of space for more. Look at a map of Germany, and compare it to a map of this country. They have motorways all over the place, yet they still have plenty of countryside to enjoy. There demographics are way different so no comparison |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Paul Weaver" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:31:32 +0000, Chris Jones wrote: Don't be silly, we're nowhere near that. I don't think the motorway network even takes up 1% of the land in this country, there's plenty of space for more. Motorways take about 50 square miles of the UK - 0.05% of the total land area. So????? |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
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Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"JNugent" wrote in message ... wrote: It seems to me that all of the privatised industries that were sold off were making a loss at the time of sale, however they are now making a profit. Why couldnt this have been done while they were nationalised???? In a nutshell, because they were run by public servants who were asking themselves the wrong questions, knew they could rely on losses to be made up by the taxpayer and were not incentivised to provide optimum solutions. Hang on, you are a public servant too, aren't you? No I am not I am a civil engineer working in the private sector (one of the most cut throat industries there are ie construction) |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Paul Weaver" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:59:51 +0000, iantheengineer wrote: What about all the other people???? Do you forget the miners strikes when I don't much care. You see in the private industry if your company doesnt sell Cheaply, it goes bust, shareholders lose big time, normal workers move to other industries, they adapt, or should. good ol MT decided to close all of the pits so we imported cheap coal from Africa. Now most of the pits have closed Africas coal price has risen dramatically, oh yeah she was an absolute genius! Any 5 year old could have seen that coming Of course instead of depleteing our coal reserves we still have them, so in 50 years When there's hardly any left, we can reopen the pits and make big bucks. Okay who is going to fund the re-opening of the flooded and unsafe mines??? You?? |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
iantheengineer wrote:
Speed humps are used to prevent speeding idiots and save lives. Do you REALLY think that a local authority with limited funds would waste it n putting in humps for the sake of it. Yes. Otherwise why do we see speed humps being installed while at the same time the roads are full of potholes? And they don't save lives. Ask the Ambulance Service. -- http://www.speedlimit.org.uk "If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect." |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"JNugent" wrote in message ... wrote: [this is a good'un!:] Do you forget the miners strikes when good ol MT decided to close all of the pits so we imported cheap coal from Africa. Now most of the pits have closed Africas coal price has risen dramatically, oh yeah she was an absolute genius! Any 5 year old could have seen that coming History: 0/10 Geography: 0/10. Yeah whatever I think you will find I am right |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com wrote in message ... "iantheengineer" writes: How much delay depends upon the designer and the type of control, whether it is fixed or adaptive. All modern schemes are adaptive, MOVA, micro proceesor optimized vehicle actuation is now the standard method of control for isolated junctions When the traffic lights at Chiswick Roundabout were upgraded last year, tailbacks on the Eastbound A4 quadrupled. The "optimized" controller was routinely letting the southbound North Circular traffic onto the roundabout at the same time as the eastbound A4, with the result that only 3 or 4 cars from each lane could get off the A4 on each cycle. I am not convinced that MOVA lights are an improvement on the fixed cycle synchronized lights that started becoming popular 20 years ago. Its all depends on the set up . MoVA is better , about 13% on average but it all depends on them being set up right. |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"Robin May" wrote in message ... "iantheengineer" wrote the following in: "Robin May" wrote in message ... "Chris Jones" wrote the following in: If the North/South Circulars had been built properly as 3-4 lane motorways, people living in London wouldn't need to use the M25 to get from one part to another, and it would do what it was designed for - cater for long-distance traffic. The North Circular's not that bad. Apart from a few dodgy bits where it gets very congested or narrows down to single carriageway, it's generally alright. Investment in public transport is whats required, something else MT ran into the ground Well, yes, but I don't see what that has to do with my post. Could you explain? -- message by Robin May Many of the people using the M25 are using it to hop where in actual fact they could get public transport direct. I agree entirely with you. An alternate would be though to support public transport to provide for these hops. |
Britains Crap Roads, Answers wanted
"PeterE" wrote in message ... iantheengineer wrote: "Steve Firth" wrote in message .. . iantheengineer wrote: When labour came to power the country had no money. ********. No not ******** FACT No, ********. In 1997 Gordon Brown inherited the healthiest financial situation of any post-war Chancellor. -- Please prove this point and I will accept it, however I have to ask why you think this??? and at what expense?? My shed is completely knackered, and so is my garden fence but Ive got loads in the bank??? Whey HEy good times, oh **** my shed and fence have just fallen down. Must spend all the money...Now Im not so happy Do I have to give ANOTHER economics lesson!!! http://www.speedlimit.org.uk "If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect." |
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