Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

On Jun 28, 7:50*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 28, 6:32 pm, wrote:

Oh, I've not been keeping up then. I've never used Cannon St in my
life.

It's more of a kind of 'in the know' station to use perhaps. MIGs
posts elsewhere on this thread detail the relatively recent-ish
Saturday (re)opening of the mainline station. On Saturdays it provides
trains to a swathe of south-east London...

Is it likely to become a 7 day station eventually, especially after the
Thameslink track alterations in the London Bridge corridor?

Good question. To be clear, it's not even a full 6 day station now -
last Saturday train is at 19:14. Afterwards I *think* everything
shifts to Charing Cross.


Isn't there something in the SL RUS about some line or other (through
Greenwich maybe?) having Cannon St as its only terminus - or might the
trains just stop short at London Bridge on Sundays?

IIRC it's Greenwich. As you say it needn't mean the station is
actually served on Sundays. Indeed - conspiracy mode on - 'the
railway' might not wish to point out the convenient proximity of Bank
(for access to the west end) if that means they have to open Cannon
Street on Sundays (esp. if it's only for the benefit of one service -
though maybe it'd be more than that).

Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

On 28 June, 20:05, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 28, 7:50*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 28, 6:32 pm, wrote:

Oh, I've not been keeping up then. I've never used Cannon St in my
life.

It's more of a kind of 'in the know' station to use perhaps. MIGs
posts elsewhere on this thread detail the relatively recent-ish
Saturday (re)opening of the mainline station. On Saturdays it provides
trains to a swathe of south-east London...

Is it likely to become a 7 day station eventually, especially after the
Thameslink track alterations in the London Bridge corridor?

Good question. To be clear, it's not even a full 6 day station now -
last Saturday train is at 19:14. Afterwards I *think* everything
shifts to Charing Cross.

Yes. Well, it's more that they don't run at all, leaving only the
Charing Cross services.

Apart from the Maidstone line (including the 1914) which isn't covered
in the evening, adjustments to calling patterns in the Charing Cross
services (plus Lewisham diversions) mean that they cover anywhere you
could have got to from Cannon Street.

This is possible because, with Cannon Street closed, the Charing Cross
services can do all sorts of crossings of tracks without conflict.


Isn't there something in the SL RUS about some line or other (through
Greenwich maybe?) having Cannon St as its only terminus - or might the
trains just stop short at London Bridge on Sundays?

IIRC it's Greenwich. As you say it needn't mean the station is
actually served on Sundays. Indeed - conspiracy mode on - 'the
railway' might not wish to point out the convenient proximity of Bank
(for access to the west end) if that means they have to open Cannon
Street on Sundays (esp. if it's only for the benefit of one service -
though maybe it'd be more than that).

On Sunday daytimes now, there is a sort of half-hourly vestigial
Cannon Street service starting from London Bridge and going via
Greenwich.

There used to be the odd one doing that on weekday late evenings, but
not any more it seems ... oops, no, one leaving LB at 2134, equivalent
to a non-existent 2130 from Cannon Street (last is 2100 on weekdays).

Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

On 28 June, 19:37, Mizter T wrote:

The change from Cannon Street to Bank for the Tube (done by walking up
Walbrook - unfortunately nowadays just a street, rather than a
soothing babbling brook)

I couldn't resist coming back to that ... I am sure it must have been
a sewage-filled creek before it was built over, rather than a babbling
brook.

Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

On Jun 28, 8:01*pm, wrote:

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

[snip]

There's one thing I meant to say but didn't - I think is implied in
the various less than glowing comments about the Circle line - but
it's worth pointing it out for the sake of clarity, should anyone
reading this not quite understand.

It's not the Circle line route as a whole that I (and others) avoid -
most of it is of course duplicated by other 'lines' (i.e. the
District, the Met and the H&C lines - which in reality are nothing
more than sub-surface routes, or services) - it's the weak points
where the Circle line is the only link, i.e. Aldgate to Tower Hill, or
Gloucester Road to High Street Ken (though arguably the western side
is a bit more complicated, with the Circle arguably performing a more
important duty linking Edgware Road to Gloucester Road - especially
given the potentially confusing change at Edgware Road for District
Wimbleware trains).

I'm sure you (Colin R) fully comprehended this - but I can see the
potential for other readers to be somewhat bemused by so many folks
apparently completely writing off whole chunks of the Underground
network in central-ish London - rest assured, we're not!

FWIW, I'll try and make a bit more use of the Circle line in the
future, and see how it works out for me.

I appreciate what you're saying. I have to say that my journeys almost
never include those critical parts of the Circle. Obviously not High St to
Gloucester Road when usually travelling to or from Putney and pretty
rarely via Aldgate. So Paddington to King's Cross is probably my commonest
usage (also a unique Circle route for through trains). I'm not sure where
my mother uses it.

Paddington to KX also being possible on the H&C line of course, albeit
from a different place (the Bishop's Bridge/ suburban platforms) - but
as you say Paddington (Praed Street/ Circle+District line station) to
KX is a unique route, and crucial in your KX to East Putney step-and
hassle-free route, given that Edgware Road cannot guarantee cross-
platform interchange on to District Wimbleware trains that start from
there, whilst Paddington (Praed Street) - and indeed all stations to
High Street Ken - offer same platform interchange onto Wimbleware.

(I have comprehended the importance of the Circle line correctly
above, yes?)

[snip]

Oh, I've not been keeping up then. I've never used Cannon St in my
life.

It's more of a kind of 'in the know' station to use perhaps. MIGs
posts elsewhere on this thread detail the relatively recent-ish
Saturday (re)opening of the mainline station. On Saturdays it provides
trains to a swathe of south-east London, and also down to Ashford too.
The change from Cannon Street to Bank for the Tube (done by walking up
Walbrook - unfortunately nowadays just a street, rather than a
soothing babbling brook) is perhaps no more lengthy than that at some
other London termini stations - in particular the Central line
platforms are very easy to access from the Walbrook/Poultry end of the
Bank station complex.

At one time I might have thought of this for trips between Putney and
Liverpool St. Nowadays I have almost no reason to use Liverpool St. For
Cambridge the King's Cross route is almost invariably faster now.

Well, for that journey I'd be tempted to just go to Aldgare East and
walk the half-mile to Liverpool Street - either right up Houndsditch,
or otherwise various clever-ish side street routes can be utilised,
e.g. via Devonshire Square and Devonshire Row.

Re the Cannon Street to Bank interchange - I've a feeling that this
is ever so mildly more fiddly at weekends as the entrance to Bank
station nearest to Cannon Street (at the top end of Walbrook) is
closed, or closes early or something. But it's not a big issue as
traffic - both vehicular and pedestrian - is pretty light around
there at weekends, so getting to another entrance to Bank is no
big deal.

I'll give you the last point. My commonest recent bus usage in London
involves the City at weekends. Very quick.

Yes, absolutely (and I wasn't even in bus salesman mode - indeed I
wasn't even thinking of buses when I wrote my comments above!). As you
say, buses through the City at weekends are very speedy, and are most
definitely to be recommended. The City can also be a pleasant and
direct way of routing cross-town cycle journeys too.

Indeed so. These days cycling is my most common means of transport within
London. But the granddaughter isn't old enough to cycle yet. :-)

I'm sure she will be in good time! :-)

Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

On Jun 28, 6:24*pm, MIG wrote:

On 28 June, 18:12, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 28, 4:47*pm, MIG wrote:

[snip]

I actually assumed that Cannon Street Underground had started opening
on Saturdays as part of the current Bank situation; I'd forgotten it
went back to 2005. *I find it most useful as a change to the Central
or buses from the Holborn area.

The change to the Central line at Bank is great, and should be better
publicised - or even just plain publicised (I'm trying to think if
there are any signs or notices at Cannon Street NR that indicate just
how close Bank station is... at Bank, I *think* there may be some
indication of Cannon Street on the exit sign for the relevant exit,
not at all sure of that though).

I hadn't ever thought about the buses to/from Holborn before - that's
certainly a good shout, I'll remember that one.

I was being a bit incoherent, and meant to say that if I was heading
from the Holborn area to south east, I might jump on a bus (8, 25, 242
[521 better MF]) and go Cannon Street mainline, not noticing if the
District/Circle was open on a Saturday. *Less likely arrive on
District/Circle in general than Central or bus.

I think you worked it out, but thought I would clarify for non-mind-
readers.

Yes, I understood what you meant exactly - the bus was to get to
Cannon Street mainline station! (Though now re-reading it I can see
the potential for confusion on the part of the reader!)

At weekends the bus might well be just as quick as the Central line
from Holborn to Bank (or at least not much slower), once one factors
in the need to dive down into the bowels of the subterranean beast
before extracting oneself again! And if there's a bus (of the
requisite route) in sight on the street then I dare say it's perhaps a
bit of a no-brainer.

Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

On Jun 28, 6:46*pm, MIG wrote:

On 28 June, 18:24, MIG wrote:

On 28 June, 18:12, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 28, 4:47*pm, MIG wrote:

On 28 June, 15:51, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

I *think* Cannon Street mainline station being open for business on
Saturdays is a relatively new thing too, but I must admit I never
really followed such matters much in the past. MIG will be the man in
the know about this one.

The Cannon Street opening seems to have happened in stages, and I may
have to check on the dates, but I think the mainline started opening
Saturdays around 1999.

First for a year or two, maybe 1997 or 1998, there started to be more
weekday daytime off peak services to Cannon Street, and several of
them ran on Saturdays as well but terminated at London Bridge
(reversing at Cannon Street anyway). *I remember a colleague seeing a
London Bridge train at Sidcup and being fooled into thinking that
Charing Cross was closed for the weekend ...

But before long they opened Cannon Street mainline, but they didn't
open the Underground until much more recently.

checks

Winter 1996/97 weekday off-peak services to CS, but nothing Saturday

By summer 1997 Saturday daytime services starting London Bridge,
equivalent to several Cannon Street services

By summer 1999 Saturday services to Cannon Street

Can't seem to lay hands on winter 1998/99.

/checks

Ta very much for the information. Pre the 96/97 increase in off-peak
services to Cannon Street, I'm curious as to *what ran to and from
there in the middle of the day - there were *some*, weren't there?

Yes, it was open all day, but there was pretty much just a shuttle to
London Bridge off peak.

Although I didn't check back far enough for that; just looking for the
Saturday start. *Several daytime off peak services were running in
1995 too (including the short-lived Orpington via Catford Bridge
service). *Before that, at least late 1993 through 1994, there was
just a half-hourly service to Plumstead via Greenwich plus some London
Bridge shuttles. *Not sure when that started, but I am pretty sure
that even that was an increase on a long period of just London Bridge
shuttles.

The trick my memory played on me was how long it was before some of
those 1995 services started running on Saturdays, if just from London
Bridge.

Thanks for the follow-up info - so it took four years from the start
of 'proper' off-peak weekday services to Cannon Street in '95 until
eventually the station eventually opened for business on Saturdays in
'99... then a further six years before LU caught on and decided to
open their station too! (Though of course Bank station was always
open.)

I presume off-peak services ending up at Cannon Street was less a case
of demand for it as a destination, more a case of the trains having to
go somewhere (the trains in question being the result of an increased
level of service) - and Charing Cross was already full. If so, as
we've discussed, Cannon Street nonetheless does have a degree of
connectivity by virtue of extreme proximity to Bank station - but it's
not a virtue I've ever come across Southeastern or its predecessors
extolling beforehand.

(Oh, and yes, I do recall the Cannon Street - London Bridge shuttles
now - not something I ever had any need for, nor interest in at the
time though. My contemporary self would have found it interesting of
course!)

Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

On Jun 28, 8:42*pm, MIG wrote:

On 28 June, 19:37, Mizter T wrote:

The change from Cannon Street to Bank for the Tube (done by walking up
Walbrook - unfortunately nowadays just a street, rather than a
soothing babbling brook)

I couldn't resist coming back to that ... I am sure it must have been
a sewage-filled creek before it was built over, rather than a babbling
brook.

And there I was, thinking that if only the bankers of doom had
serenely paddled through a stream en route to and from work each day
then we wouldn't be in this mess.

I'm sure you're right, and so I wonder if we should not resurrect said
creek and insist (with a degree of menace) that said bankers navigate
it in absence of paddle ("...not so flush now, eh?" etc). OK, it'd
foul up a decent interchange that you currently enjoy... but I'm sure
you'd understand.

Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

On 28 June, 21:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 28, 6:46*pm, MIG wrote:





On 28 June, 18:24, MIG wrote:

On 28 June, 18:12, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 28, 4:47*pm, MIG wrote:

On 28 June, 15:51, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

I *think* Cannon Street mainline station being open for business on
Saturdays is a relatively new thing too, but I must admit I never
really followed such matters much in the past. MIG will be the man in
the know about this one.

The Cannon Street opening seems to have happened in stages, and I may
have to check on the dates, but I think the mainline started opening
Saturdays around 1999.

First for a year or two, maybe 1997 or 1998, there started to be more
weekday daytime off peak services to Cannon Street, and several of
them ran on Saturdays as well but terminated at London Bridge
(reversing at Cannon Street anyway). *I remember a colleague seeing a
London Bridge train at Sidcup and being fooled into thinking that
Charing Cross was closed for the weekend ...

But before long they opened Cannon Street mainline, but they didn't
open the Underground until much more recently.

checks

Winter 1996/97 weekday off-peak services to CS, but nothing Saturday

By summer 1997 Saturday daytime services starting London Bridge,
equivalent to several Cannon Street services

By summer 1999 Saturday services to Cannon Street

Can't seem to lay hands on winter 1998/99.

/checks

Ta very much for the information. Pre the 96/97 increase in off-peak
services to Cannon Street, I'm curious as to *what ran to and from
there in the middle of the day - there were *some*, weren't there?

Yes, it was open all day, but there was pretty much just a shuttle to
London Bridge off peak.

Although I didn't check back far enough for that; just looking for the
Saturday start. *Several daytime off peak services were running in
1995 too (including the short-lived Orpington via Catford Bridge
service). *Before that, at least late 1993 through 1994, there was
just a half-hourly service to Plumstead via Greenwich plus some London
Bridge shuttles. *Not sure when that started, but I am pretty sure
that even that was an increase on a long period of just London Bridge
shuttles.

The trick my memory played on me was how long it was before some of
those 1995 services started running on Saturdays, if just from London
Bridge.

Thanks for the follow-up info - so it took four years from the start
of *'proper' off-peak weekday services to Cannon Street in '95 until
eventually the station eventually opened for business on Saturdays in
'99... then a further six years before LU caught on and decided to
open their station too! (Though of course Bank station was always
open.)

I presume off-peak services ending up at Cannon Street was less a case
of demand for it as a destination, more a case of the trains having to
go somewhere (the trains in question being the result of an increased
level of service) - and Charing Cross was already full. If so, as
we've discussed, Cannon Street nonetheless does have a degree of
connectivity by virtue of extreme proximity to Bank station - but it's
not a virtue I've ever come across Southeastern or its predecessors
extolling beforehand.

Yes, you see the majority of people piling out at London Bridge
outside of the peaks any day (and I bet a few heading for Marble Arch
via Charing Cross and Oxford Circus; oh well).

But you need Cannon Street to be operational to able to turn the
trains round and the passenger-facing staffing is minimal.



(Oh, and yes, I do recall the Cannon Street - London Bridge shuttles
now - not something I ever had any need for, nor interest in at the
time though. My contemporary self would have found it interesting of
course!)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

On 28 June, 21:31, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 28, 8:42*pm, MIG wrote:

On 28 June, 19:37, Mizter T wrote:

The change from Cannon Street to Bank for the Tube (done by walking up
Walbrook - unfortunately nowadays just a street, rather than a
soothing babbling brook)

I couldn't resist coming back to that ... I am sure it must have been
a sewage-filled creek before it was built over, rather than a babbling
brook.

And there I was, thinking that if only the bankers of doom had
serenely paddled through a stream en route to and from work each day
then we wouldn't be in this mess.

I'm sure you're right, and so I wonder if we should not resurrect said
creek and insist (with a degree of menace) that said bankers navigate
it in absence of paddle ("...not so flush now, eh?" etc). OK, it'd
foul up a decent interchange that you currently enjoy... but I'm sure
you'd understand.

A sacrifice I'd be willing to make, but there's a container depot
where it joins the Thames now, as someone raised a while back. Didn't
they say it transports rubbish though? Some more possibilities come
to mind.

Extended Circle trial this weekend
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Jun 28, 8:01*pm, wrote:

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

[snip]

There's one thing I meant to say but didn't - I think is implied in
the various less than glowing comments about the Circle line - but
it's worth pointing it out for the sake of clarity, should anyone
reading this not quite understand.

It's not the Circle line route as a whole that I (and others) avoid
- most of it is of course duplicated by other 'lines' (i.e. the
District, the Met and the H&C lines - which in reality are nothing
more than sub-surface routes, or services) - it's the weak points
where the Circle line is the only link, i.e. Aldgate to Tower Hill,
or Gloucester Road to High Street Ken (though arguably the western
side is a bit more complicated, with the Circle arguably performing
a more important duty linking Edgware Road to Gloucester Road -
especially given the potentially confusing change at Edgware Road
for District Wimbleware trains).

I'm sure you (Colin R) fully comprehended this - but I can see the
potential for other readers to be somewhat bemused by so many folks
apparently completely writing off whole chunks of the Underground
network in central-ish London - rest assured, we're not!

FWIW, I'll try and make a bit more use of the Circle line in the
future, and see how it works out for me.

I appreciate what you're saying. I have to say that my journeys almost
never include those critical parts of the Circle. Obviously not High
St to Gloucester Road when usually travelling to or from Putney and
pretty rarely via Aldgate. So Paddington to King's Cross is probably
my commonest usage (also a unique Circle route for through trains).
I'm not sure where my mother uses it.

Paddington to KX also being possible on the H&C line of course, albeit
from a different place (the Bishop's Bridge/ suburban platforms) - but
as you say Paddington (Praed Street/ Circle+District line station) to
KX is a unique route, and crucial in your KX to East Putney step-and
hassle-free route, given that Edgware Road cannot guarantee cross-
platform interchange on to District Wimbleware trains that start from
there, whilst Paddington (Praed Street) - and indeed all stations to
High Street Ken - offer same platform interchange onto Wimbleware.

(I have comprehended the importance of the Circle line correctly
above, yes?)

Paddington H & C platforms is a very far from intuitive Underground
destination for people getting off FGW trains. We know that no attempt to
signpost passengers in that direction was made yesterday from the report
of my friends arriving from Cardiff.

[snip]

Oh, I've not been keeping up then. I've never used Cannon St n my
life.

It's more of a kind of 'in the know' station to use perhaps. MIGs
posts elsewhere on this thread detail the relatively recent-ish
Saturday (re)opening of the mainline station. On Saturdays it
provides trains to a swathe of south-east London, and also down to
Ashford too. The change from Cannon Street to Bank for the Tube
(done by walking up Walbrook - unfortunately nowadays just a
street, rather than a soothing babbling brook) is perhaps no more
lengthy than that at some other London termini stations - in
particular the Central line platforms are very easy to access
from the Walbrook/Poultry end of the Bank station complex.

At one time I might have thought of this for trips between Putney and
Liverpool St. Nowadays I have almost no reason to use Liverpool St.
For Cambridge the King's Cross route is almost invariably faster now.

Well, for that journey I'd be tempted to just go to Aldgare East and
walk the half-mile to Liverpool Street - either right up Houndsditch,
or otherwise various clever-ish side street routes can be utilised,
e.g. via Devonshire Square and Devonshire Row.

What a ridiculous idea! Ride several stations further and then walk half a
mile? That's just silly!

--
Colin Rosenstiel