On 9 July, 23:33, John B wrote:
On Jul 9, 11:00*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:





On 9 July, 22:26, Commuter wrote:

1. Why would someone travelling from Marble Arch to Woolwich Arsenal go
via Canary Wharf? They should change at Shadwell/Limehouse/Westferry or
Poplar. Even if they did go down the Lewisham branch the furthest they'd
go is West India Quay.

2. Even if (1) doesn't apply then they wouldn't touch their card on the
reader at Canary Wharf, nor would they walk to Heron Quays.

The thing to remember is that the system is simply not trying to guess
your intentions, or what sensible routes are. It's based on each
individual Oyster reader applying very simple rules at each touch in
or out. These include:

1. Anyone touching out at Canary Wharf DLR and then in at Canary Wharf
LUL is considered to be continuing their journey.
2. Anyone touching out at Canary Wharf LUL and then in at Heron Quays
is considered to be continuing their journey.

And the kicker:
3. When someone touches out, the last journey is examined. If it
started more than X hours ago (where X is dependent on the starting
point), it is ignored, and the user is charged a £4 unstarted journey
fee.

Rules 1 and 2 mean the data on your card for your "last journey" says
you began it at Marble Arch some time ago, which is why you end up
with a £4 fee when rule 3 is applied at Woolwich Arsenal.

The nub of this is the system decided *at Heron Quays* that you were
making one long journey. In an ideal world, the Oyster Reader at
Woolwich Arsenal could have reversed this decision by - for example -
rewriting the last journey to end at Canary Wharf, and then appending
a separate Heron Quays - Woolwich Arsenal journey. But the system
never rewrites things - the decision of the Heron Quays Oyster reader
was final.

(NB this is all from observation, there may be exceptions, etc etc)

Would there be any significant fraud implications if the 2 hours
instead kicked in from *when you last touched a reader*, rather than
*when you started your journey*? I can't think of any - the point of
the time-out is surely to stop you from going to $suburbia and back
without touching out as $empty_zone_6_statio, rather than to stop you
from going on a whistlestop tour of out-of-station interchanges...

I can't think of any either, but it would result in an even greater
contrast with the pay-per-vehicle rule of buses than the current
situation. (Note my previously-mentioned central London to south east
option whereby two buses is cheaper than LU/DLR/walk if I start before
1900 but more expensive if I start after 1900 [and about to get even
more complicated with NR].)

On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 05:23:03 -0700 (PDT)
John B wrote:
Quite. One might have thought that no-one would be dumb enough to do
the same with Oyster, but rather would ask the guy at the window and
explain the situation.

Err, no. Oyster has been sold as a smartcard , people would assume its smart.
Obviously an erronous assumption. Plus you don't physically lose it so you're
not quite as attentive as you might be.

B2003

On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 05:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
And yours is the stand Tfl Apologists moronic response. Or course theres
an explanation for it - money.

I'm sorry, you're absolutely right - the system was designed from day
one to scam passengers. There can be no other explanation for it,
because Boltar has spoken.

Glad you've finally got it

The fact that refunds are available for erroneous Oyster charges is no
secret at all, it is mentioned in plenty of TfL publicity and LU staff
will readily refer you to Oyster customer services if you have
concerns about overcharging.

Oh come on. Where is it mentioned? On posters in the stations? During
announcements about more late trains? Is there a link to the refund page
on the front page of the website?

That would be a "no" to all of the above.

B2003

On Jul 10, 10:20�am, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 05:23:35 -0700 (PDT)

Mizter T wrote:
And yours is the stand Tfl Apologists moronic response. Or course theres
an explanation for it - money.

I'm sorry, you're absolutely right - the system was designed from day
one to scam passengers. There can be no other explanation for it,
because Boltar has spoken.

Glad you've finally got it

The fact that refunds are available for erroneous Oyster charges is no
secret at all, it is mentioned in plenty of TfL publicity and LU staff
will readily refer you to Oyster customer services if you have
concerns about overcharging.

Oh come on. Where is it mentioned? On posters in the stations? During
announcements about more late trains? Is there a link to the refund page
on the front page of the website?

That would be a "no" to all of the above.

B2003

Can someone explain to me what "variable journey times" will mean?

For example, if using Oyster P.A.Y.G, I enter the Underground in Zone
2, say at Fulham Broadway, and then spend all day travelling around
the Circle Line, for example, and then exit at Fulham Broadway say 5
or 6 hours later, will I be charged the equivalent to a Zone 1 and 2
Travelcard, or something else? If the latter, how much? Would the
answer be different if I eventually exited in a Zone 1 station as
opposed to a Zone 2 station?

Many thanks.

Marc.

On Jul 11, 12:52*pm, " wrote:

Can someone explain to me what "variable journey times" will mean?

This post from Peter Smyth contains the response from TfL to his
question about the new 'variable maximum journey times' (the inclusion
of the word 'minimum' as opposed to 'maximum' in the title of the
thread is misleading):
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...4747db850d431f

The response from TfL nicely sums up the changes, I think. There's
further upcoming changes connected with Oyster PAYG on NR - a new
concept called "Oyster extension permits" - which essentially adds on
an extra allowance for time when pax are using an NR route (the extra
time is basically to take account of the more infrequent service on NR
lines).


For example, if using Oyster P.A.Y.G, I enter the Underground in Zone
2, say at Fulham Broadway, and then spend all day travelling around
the Circle Line, for example, and then exit at Fulham Broadway say 5
or 6 hours later, will I be charged the equivalent to a Zone 1 and 2
Travelcard, or something else? *If the latter, how much? *Would the
answer be different if I eventually exited in a Zone 1 station as
opposed to a Zone 2 station?

From an Oyster systems POV, your original journey from Fulham Broadway
would 'time out' whilst you were still in the system, so the £4 'max
cash fare' charge would be levied for only touching in at Fulham B'way
and not subsequently touching out (what actually happens is that £4 is
taken as an 'entry charge' when you enter the system, and then the
appropriate amount refunded back to you when you exit so you pay the
correct fare).

Then when you exit Fulham Broadway five hours later, the system would
levy another £4 charge because you would be touching-out without
having touched-in.

Essentially, the trip would result in two unresolved journeys.

Anyone who really wants to spend all day within the system should just
buy a Day Travelcard.

On Jul 11, 1:12�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 11, 12:52�pm, " wrote:



Can someone explain to me what "variable journey times" will mean?

This post from Peter Smyth contains the response from TfL to his
question about the new 'variable maximum journey times' (the inclusion
of the word 'minimum' as opposed to 'maximum' in the title of the
thread is misleading):http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...4747db850d431f

The response from TfL nicely sums up the changes, I think. There's
further upcoming changes connected with Oyster PAYG on NR - a new
concept called "Oyster extension permits" - which essentially adds on
an extra allowance for time when pax are using an NR route (the extra
time is basically to take account of the more infrequent service on NR
lines).



For example, if using Oyster P.A.Y.G, I enter the Underground in Zone
2, say at Fulham Broadway, and then spend all day travelling around
the Circle Line, for example, and then exit at Fulham Broadway say 5
or 6 hours later, will I be charged the equivalent to a Zone 1 and 2
Travelcard, or something else? �If the latter, how much? �Would the
answer be different if I eventually exited in a Zone 1 station as
opposed to a Zone 2 station?

From an Oyster systems POV, your original journey from Fulham Broadway
would 'time out' whilst you were still in the system, so the �4 'max
cash fare' charge would be levied for only touching in at Fulham B'way
and not subsequently touching out (what actually happens is that �4 is
taken as an 'entry charge' when you enter the system, and then the
appropriate amount refunded back to you when you exit so you pay the
correct fare).

Then when you exit Fulham Broadway five hours later, the system would
levy another �4 charge because you would be touching-out without
having touched-in.

Essentially, the trip would result in two unresolved journeys.

Anyone who really wants to spend all day within the system should just
buy a Day Travelcard.

Thanks for that very helpful answer.

But why, when using Oyster P.A.Y.G., should I be deprived of the
benefit of the 50 pence (or whatever) differential between that and
buying a paper Travelcard? It's only a small amount of money, but
it's the principle that concerns me.

Of course, this couldn't be yet another example of Boltar's
justifiable scepticism could it, that they're trying to screw every
penny out of us?

I write as someone who has just spent the best part of the last hour
trying to get the unexpired credit from my old (lost) Oyster card
transferred to my new one!

Marc.

On Jul 11, 1:35�pm, " wrote:
On Jul 11, 1:12 pm, Mizter T wrote:





On Jul 11, 12:52 pm, " wrote:

Can someone explain to me what "variable journey times" will mean?

This post from Peter Smyth contains the response from TfL to his
question about the new 'variable maximum journey times' (the inclusion
of the word 'minimum' as opposed to 'maximum' in the title of the
thread is misleading):http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...4747db850d431f

The response from TfL nicely sums up the changes, I think. There's
further upcoming changes connected with Oyster PAYG on NR - a new
concept called "Oyster extension permits" - which essentially adds on
an extra allowance for time when pax are using an NR route (the extra
time is basically to take account of the more infrequent service on NR
lines).

For example, if using Oyster P.A.Y.G, I enter the Underground in Zone
2, say at Fulham Broadway, and then spend all day travelling around
the Circle Line, for example, and then exit at Fulham Broadway say 5
or 6 hours later, will I be charged the equivalent to a Zone 1 and 2
Travelcard, or something else? If the latter, how much? Would the
answer be different if I eventually exited in a Zone 1 station as
opposed to a Zone 2 station?

From an Oyster systems POV, your original journey from Fulham Broadway
would 'time out' whilst you were still in the system, so the 4 'max
cash fare' charge would be levied for only touching in at Fulham B'way
and not subsequently touching out (what actually happens is that 4 is
taken as an 'entry charge' when you enter the system, and then the
appropriate amount refunded back to you when you exit so you pay the
correct fare).

Then when you exit Fulham Broadway five hours later, the system would
levy another 4 charge because you would be touching-out without
having touched-in.

Essentially, the trip would result in two unresolved journeys.

Anyone who really wants to spend all day within the system should just
buy a Day Travelcard.

Thanks for that very helpful answer.

But why, when using Oyster P.A.Y.G., should I be deprived of the
benefit of the 50 pence (or whatever) differential between that and
buying a paper Travelcard? �It's only a small amount of money, but
it's the principle that concerns me.

Of course, this couldn't be yet another example of Boltar's
justifiable scepticism could it, that they're trying to screw every
penny out of us?

I write as someone who has just spent the best part of the last hour
trying to get the unexpired credit from my old (lost) Oyster card
transferred to my new one!

Marc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've just realised the implication of what the previous reply means: I
can effectively travel around the WHOLE Underground system all day for
�8, and no need to restrict myself to Zones 1 and 2.

Actually, that's quite a bargain!

Marc.

On Jul 11, 1:39*pm, " wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:35 pm, " wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:12 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 11, 12:52 pm, " wrote:

Can someone explain to me what "variable journey times" will mean?

This post from Peter Smyth contains the response from TfL to his
question about the new 'variable maximum journey times' (the inclusion
of the word 'minimum' as opposed to 'maximum' in the title of the
thread is misleading):http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...4747db850d431f

The response from TfL nicely sums up the changes, I think. There's
further upcoming changes connected with Oyster PAYG on NR - a new
concept called "Oyster extension permits" - which essentially adds on
an extra allowance for time when pax are using an NR route (the extra
time is basically to take account of the more infrequent service on NR
lines).

For example, if using Oyster P.A.Y.G, I enter the Underground in Zone
2, say at Fulham Broadway, and then spend all day travelling around
the Circle Line, for example, and then exit at Fulham Broadway say 5
or 6 hours later, will I be charged the equivalent to a Zone 1 and 2
Travelcard, or something else? If the latter, how much? Would the
answer be different if I eventually exited in a Zone 1 station as
opposed to a Zone 2 station?

From an Oyster systems POV, your original journey from Fulham Broadway
would 'time out' whilst you were still in the system, so the 4 'max
cash fare' charge would be levied for only touching in at Fulham B'way
and not subsequently touching out (what actually happens is that 4 is
taken as an 'entry charge' when you enter the system, and then the
appropriate amount refunded back to you when you exit so you pay the
correct fare).

Then when you exit Fulham Broadway five hours later, the system would
levy another 4 charge because you would be touching-out without
having touched-in.

Essentially, the trip would result in two unresolved journeys.

Anyone who really wants to spend all day within the system should just
buy a Day Travelcard.

Thanks for that very helpful answer.

But why, when using Oyster P.A.Y.G., should I be deprived of the
benefit of the 50 pence (or whatever) differential between that and
buying a paper Travelcard? It's only a small amount of money, but
it's the principle that concerns me.

Of course, this couldn't be yet another example of Boltar's
justifiable scepticism could it, that they're trying to screw every
penny out of us?

I write as someone who has just spent the best part of the last hour
trying to get the unexpired credit from my old (lost) Oyster card
transferred to my new one!

I've just realised the implication of what the previous reply means: I
can effectively travel around the WHOLE Underground system all day for
8, and no need to restrict myself to Zones 1 and 2.

Actually, that's quite a bargain!

Erm, as soon as you're fist journey 'times out', then I think
essentially you'd be travelling without a properly validated Oyster
card, and thus possibly subject to a Penalty Fare should your ticket
(i.e. Oyster card) be checked. I haven't however scrutinised the
chapter and verse of the Oyster card T&Cs and the TfL Conditions of
Carriage. I dunno. They might however just think you're a bit mad!

On Jul 11, 1:35*pm, " wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:12 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 11, 12:52 pm, " wrote:

Can someone explain to me what "variable journey times" will mean?

This post from Peter Smyth contains the response from TfL to his
question about the new 'variable maximum journey times' (the inclusion
of the word 'minimum' as opposed to 'maximum' in the title of the
thread is misleading):http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...4747db850d431f

The response from TfL nicely sums up the changes, I think. There's
further upcoming changes connected with Oyster PAYG on NR - a new
concept called "Oyster extension permits" - which essentially adds on
an extra allowance for time when pax are using an NR route (the extra
time is basically to take account of the more infrequent service on NR
lines).

For example, if using Oyster P.A.Y.G, I enter the Underground in Zone
2, say at Fulham Broadway, and then spend all day travelling around
the Circle Line, for example, and then exit at Fulham Broadway say 5
or 6 hours later, will I be charged the equivalent to a Zone 1 and 2
Travelcard, or something else? If the latter, how much? Would the
answer be different if I eventually exited in a Zone 1 station as
opposed to a Zone 2 station?

From an Oyster systems POV, your original journey from Fulham Broadway
would 'time out' whilst you were still in the system, so the 4 'max
cash fare' charge would be levied for only touching in at Fulham B'way
and not subsequently touching out (what actually happens is that 4 is
taken as an 'entry charge' when you enter the system, and then the
appropriate amount refunded back to you when you exit so you pay the
correct fare).

Then when you exit Fulham Broadway five hours later, the system would
levy another 4 charge because you would be touching-out without
having touched-in.

Essentially, the trip would result in two unresolved journeys.

Anyone who really wants to spend all day within the system should just
buy a Day Travelcard.

Thanks for that very helpful answer.

But why, when using Oyster P.A.Y.G., should I be deprived of the
benefit of the 50 pence (or whatever) differential between that and
buying a paper Travelcard? *It's only a small amount of money, but
it's the principle that concerns me.

Essentially, the design of the system is predicated on the notion that
people are travelling from A to B, rather than just going round in
circles all day!

And yes, it is a 50p differential. One could spend all day on the
system using Oyster PAYG, but basically one would need to exit and
then re-enter the system a number of times - basically this is would
best be done at the extreme ends of the journeys, i.e. at the end of
the line (e.g. Epping) or however far out one went - this would
therefore ensure that you were charged the correct fair/ subject to
the appropriate cap for all the zones you travelled through, and
eliminate any potential problems about so-called 'irregular travel'
should your card be checked.

Ideally one would do this by passing out and then back in through a
set of gates - these are unidirectional (i.e. either in or out), and
provide a definitive conclusion or start to each of your journeys.
Standalone Oyster readers are less ideal, as they might be configured
in a number of different ways (though I'm not going to get into the
complexity of that one right now!) - gates are therefore far better
for this purpose.

So, if one did all this then one could benefit from the 50p cheaper
Oyster PAYG daily cap! (i.e. compared to the quasi-equivalent Day
Travelcard.)


Of course, this couldn't be yet another example of Boltar's
justifiable scepticism could it, that they're trying to screw every
penny out of us?

There are very good reasons for the design of the system as it is - if
there were to be no maximum journey time limit then (a) the system
would work very badly, if it worked at all, and (b) it would be
subject to massive abuse as people worked out how to work it.

Alternatively, Boltar's hit the nail on the head and it's all been
specifically designed to do us all over. It's up for the reader to
make their own mind up on that one!


I write as someone who has just spent the best part of the last hour
trying to get the unexpired credit from my old (lost) Oyster card
transferred to my new one!

On the phone? That's not good. I'm tempted to say that communications
with Oyster customer services are best done via the secure web contact
form, but I don't know how well that method would work for more
complex enquiries/requests.

On Jul 11, 2:01�pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 11, 1:39�pm, " wrote:





On Jul 11, 1:35 pm, " wrote:

On Jul 11, 1:12 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 11, 12:52 pm, " wrote:

Can someone explain to me what "variable journey times" will mean?

This post from Peter Smyth contains the response from TfL to his
question about the new 'variable maximum journey times' (the inclusion
of the word 'minimum' as opposed to 'maximum' in the title of the
thread is misleading):http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...4747db850d431f

The response from TfL nicely sums up the changes, I think. There's
further upcoming changes connected with Oyster PAYG on NR - a new
concept called "Oyster extension permits" - which essentially adds on
an extra allowance for time when pax are using an NR route (the extra
time is basically to take account of the more infrequent service on NR
lines).

For example, if using Oyster P.A.Y.G, I enter the Underground in Zone
2, say at Fulham Broadway, and then spend all day travelling around
the Circle Line, for example, and then exit at Fulham Broadway say 5
or 6 hours later, will I be charged the equivalent to a Zone 1 and 2
Travelcard, or something else? If the latter, how much? Would the
answer be different if I eventually exited in a Zone 1 station as
opposed to a Zone 2 station?

From an Oyster systems POV, your original journey from Fulham Broadway
would 'time out' whilst you were still in the system, so the 4 'max
cash fare' charge would be levied for only touching in at Fulham B'way
and not subsequently touching out (what actually happens is that 4 is
taken as an 'entry charge' when you enter the system, and then the
appropriate amount refunded back to you when you exit so you pay the
correct fare).

Then when you exit Fulham Broadway five hours later, the system would
levy another 4 charge because you would be touching-out without
having touched-in.

Essentially, the trip would result in two unresolved journeys.

Anyone who really wants to spend all day within the system should just
buy a Day Travelcard.

Thanks for that very helpful answer.

But why, when using Oyster P.A.Y.G., should I be deprived of the
benefit of the 50 pence (or whatever) differential between that and
buying a paper Travelcard? It's only a small amount of money, but
it's the principle that concerns me.

Of course, this couldn't be yet another example of Boltar's
justifiable scepticism could it, that they're trying to screw every
penny out of us?

I write as someone who has just spent the best part of the last hour
trying to get the unexpired credit from my old (lost) Oyster card
transferred to my new one!

I've just realised the implication of what the previous reply means: I
can effectively travel around the WHOLE Underground system all day for
8, and no need to restrict myself to Zones 1 and 2.

Actually, that's quite a bargain!

Erm, as soon as you're fist journey 'times out', then I think
essentially you'd be travelling without a properly validated Oyster
card, and thus possibly subject to a Penalty Fare should your ticket
(i.e. Oyster card) be checked. I haven't however scrutinised the
chapter and verse of the Oyster card T&Cs and the TfL Conditions of
Carriage. I dunno. They might however just think you're a bit mad!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Where, on entry to the system, am I told that I will be subject to a
penalty if I don't exit the system within a period of time? Supposing
I fell asleep on a station or train? I am content to accept that I
would have to pay the �4 on entry and �4 on exit - I understand why
that is. But on what basis could it properly be said that I have
somehow not "validated" my Oyster card by simply remaining within the
system?

What would I be supposed to do? Exit at a station and re-enter every
couple of hours?

I don't care if they think I'm mad! I've already been thrown off a
train at Birmingham for taking a photograph of a train! That is the
subject of current legal action against Network Rail. But I'm damned
if by simply travelling around on the Underground, having validly
touched in on entry, I will somehow be penalised for failing to do
something they have not told me I should be doing!

Marc.