In article
,
() wrote:

But why, when using Oyster P.A.Y.G., should I be deprived of the
benefit of the 50 pence (or whatever) differential between that and
buying a paper Travelcard? It's only a small amount of money, but
it's the principle that concerns me.

You don't have to be deprived. You just have to pass through places where
you can touch out and in often enough to get the cap.

If you are bashing the network that must be possible at almost any station
at the end of a line (while the train turns round), surely? Or am I
missing something?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 11 July, 22:16, " wrote:
On Jul 11, 10:02 pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?"





wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:40:46 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant

wrote:
TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed 4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

Prompted by this I looked up the fare tables and zone maps; travelling
from Canary Wharf to Paddington I could save significantly by avoiding
zone 1. Warwick Avenue (0.8 miles from Paddington) or St John's Wood
(2 miles but on the Jubilee so no change) are in zone 2, but the
journey to either would involve overground. Is there a touch
necessary during transfer to overground? I am guessing TPTB are not
so dim as to assume that alighting in zone 2 means you got there
without passing through the centre, when journeys avoiding zone 1 are
very much the long way round.

Guy
--http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

And that's another thing that's been bothering me: if I travel from
Zone 2 *to Zone 3 (e.g. Fulham Broadway to Stratford), does the Oyster
system assume I have travelled via Zone 1, when it is possible to do
that journey without entering Zone 1 at all? If so, why should I be
penalised in that way?

Marc.

There is currently a set fare between every pair of stations.
Sometimes it assumes via zone 1 and sometimes it doesn't, but you pay
that fare regardless of your actual route. For some journeys you win,
and for others you lose.

In article
,
() wrote:

On Jul 11, 10:02pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:40:46 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant

wrote:
TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that
there's a discount from this for using the system correctly
(touching in and out in the specified time, etc). Since the price
of a single ticket is indeed 4, I can't imagine a challenge would
be too successful.

Prompted by this I looked up the fare tables and zone maps; travelling
from Canary Wharf to Paddington I could save significantly by avoiding
zone 1. Warwick Avenue (0.8 miles from Paddington) or St John's Wood
(2 miles but on the Jubilee so no change) are in zone 2, but the
journey to either would involve overground. Is there a touch
necessary during transfer to overground? I am guessing TPTB are not
so dim as to assume that alighting in zone 2 means you got there
without passing through the centre, when journeys avoiding zone 1 are
very much the long way round.

And that's another thing that's been bothering me: if I travel from
Zone 2 to Zone 3 (e.g. Fulham Broadway to Stratford), does the Oyster
system assume I have travelled via Zone 1, when it is possible to do
that journey without entering Zone 1 at all? If so, why should I be
penalised in that way?

Yes in general but see recent discussions here on ways that could change
where there are reasonable alternatives avoiding Zone 1.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jul 11, 10:23*pm, wrote:

In article
,

() wrote:
But why, when using Oyster P.A.Y.G., should I be deprived of the
benefit of the 50 pence (or whatever) differential between that and
buying a paper Travelcard? *It's only a small amount of money, but
it's the principle that concerns me.

You don't have to be deprived. You just have to pass through places where
you can touch out and in often enough to get the cap.

If you are bashing the network that must be possible at almost any station
at the end of a line (while the train turns round), surely? Or am I
missing something?

A sense of indignation with the world.

On Jul 11, 8:39*pm, MIG wrote:

On 11 July, 17:40, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 11 July, 17:28, Roy Badami wrote:

Is there any statutory basis for this penalty? *The recent furore about
penalties for unauthorised overdrafts has brought up an important point
which is that consumer contracts essentially aren't allowed to contain
provisions that permit the service provider to 'fine' the consumer -
they can only charge the consumer the actual reasonable administrative
costs incurred as a result of the consumer's breach of contract.

TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed £4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

But the cash fare only went up to £4 to coerce people to use Oyster.
It was not the existing cash fare, so they can't really argue that
one. *Or is that the real reason why they didn't charge the maximum
for unresolved journeys straight away, ie to be able to argue that
that the maximum cash fare existed first?

Legally speaking, what matters is not what *was*, it's what *is*.

I'm pretty sure they didn't charge the 'max cash fare' at the
beginning because they wanted to try and educate people about how to
make use of the system properly.

On Jul 11, 5:40*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 11 July, 17:28, Roy Badami wrote:

Is there any statutory basis for this penalty? *The recent furore about
penalties for unauthorised overdrafts has brought up an important point
which is that consumer contracts essentially aren't allowed to contain
provisions that permit the service provider to 'fine' the consumer -
they can only charge the consumer the actual reasonable administrative
costs incurred as a result of the consumer's breach of contract.

TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed £4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

I agree - whilst we have variously referred to it on here as a
"charge", or a "fee" or even a "penalty", TfL always refer to it
without fail as the "maximum cash fare" in their documentation.

I haven't gone through the Oyster T&Cs and Conditions of Carriage with
a fine-tooth comb but I'd think the way the system operates is legally
watertight.

On Jul 11, 9:37*pm, Andy wrote:

On Jul 11, 5:40*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 11 July, 17:28, Roy Badami wrote:

Is there any statutory basis for this penalty? *The recent furore about
penalties for unauthorised overdrafts has brought up an important point
which is that consumer contracts essentially aren't allowed to contain
provisions that permit the service provider to 'fine' the consumer -
they can only charge the consumer the actual reasonable administrative
costs incurred as a result of the consumer's breach of contract.

TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed £4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

Just to point out that the "maximum cash fare" is different when using
National Rail and here £6.50 is charged upon entry to the system, with
correction to the 'real' Oyster fare upon exit. This is less than the
maximum cash fare for Watford Junction - Euston.

"Here" being Watford Junction, right? And you're absolutely sure of
that?

If it is indeed so, then that's an interesting development. The 'entry
charge' at NR termini stations where Oyster PAYG was accepted set at
£5 (as opposed to £4) some while back - this is justified as follows:
"The £5 represents the average National Rail cash single fare paid for
a journey in Greater London from these stations."
Source:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...entityNum=3315

I can't find anything specific to Watford Jn in the 'Oyster Common
Questions' database. However, it would make sense in that otherwise
one could get a cheaper journey by simply not touching out at Euston
(as some trains arrive at ungated platforms) and therefore only being
charged £4 (the peak PAYG fare being £6, off-peak it's £3.50).

The fact it's £6.50 as opposed to the current NR single fare of £7.80
doesn't invalidate the principle - it's less rather than more, after
all. I dare say it might be set at 50p more (rather than £1.80 more)
than the peak PAYG fare to alleviate aggro, whilst providing enough of
an incentive to touch-out properly.

(I'm wondering if the 'entry charge' at Watford Jn might drop from
£6.50 to a lower amount - say the normal £4 - after 0930, when off-
peak PAYG fares come into effect?)

On Jul 11, 10:02*pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:40:46 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant

wrote:
TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed £4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

Prompted by this I looked up the fare tables and zone maps; travelling
from Canary Wharf to Paddington I could save significantly by avoiding
zone 1. *Warwick Avenue (0.8 miles from Paddington) or St John's Wood
(2 miles but on the Jubilee so no change) are in zone 2, but the
journey to either would involve overground. *Is there a touch
necessary during transfer to overground? *I am guessing TPTB are not
so dim as to assume that alighting in zone 2 means you got there
without passing through the centre, when journeys avoiding zone 1 are
very much the long way round.

There are set fares between all pairs of stations - to find out what
these are use the "Fare finder" search facility on the TfL website
he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...09/farefinder/

You can then cross reference this against the Oyster PAYG fares table
to see whether the system assumes you pass through zone 1 or not -
said fares can be seen on page 4 of the TfL fares booklet here (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf

Unsurprisingly, Warwick Avenue to Canary Wharf is indeed assumed to be
a via zone 1 journey.

*However*, coming in September is a new concept called "route based
validation" for PAYG journeys. This will mean that cheaper (i.e. non-
zone 1) fares can be charged if passengers take a cheaper (i.e. non-
zone 1) route.

If this is implemented for your Warwick Avenue to Stratford journey,
then presumably you'd need to touch on an 'interchange validator'
within the confines of Willesden Junction station before transferring
onto the North London Line, and then at Stratford I guess you'd need
to validate once again (which would be easy as the Jubilee line
platforms at Stratford have the only 'internal gateline' on the LU
system).

We shall see exactly how this is implemented, so I can't guarantee the
above is how things will actually work. However it should sort out
issues for journeys such as Greenford to Stratford, where pax who
currently interchange at Shepherd's Bush (and pass through two
gatelines) and travel via the WLL and NLL are nonetheless charged the
via z1 fare (the same applies to NLL destinations such as Camden Road
and H&I). [1]

Though ultimately I don't think I'd recommend Warwick Avenue to Canary
Wharf via the long way round!


-----
[1] Though actually as we've discovered pax from the western end of
the Central line heading to NLL destinations might do well to alight
at North Acton and then get the frequent 266 bus for the short hop to
Willesden Junction - that would of course entail being charged for
multiple journeys rather than one through journey, but if one is going
to reach a PAYG daily cap anyway (i.e. the cheaper zones 2-6 cap) then
that doesn't matter.

On Jul 11, 10:16*pm, " wrote:

On Jul 11, 10:02 pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:40:46 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant

wrote:
TfL call it the "maximum cash fare", and the principle is that there's
a discount from this for using the system correctly (touching in and
out in the specified time, etc). Since the price of a single ticket is
indeed 4, I can't imagine a challenge would be too successful.

Prompted by this I looked up the fare tables and zone maps; travelling
from Canary Wharf to Paddington I could save significantly by avoiding
zone 1. Warwick Avenue (0.8 miles from Paddington) or St John's Wood
(2 miles but on the Jubilee so no change) are in zone 2, but the
journey to either would involve overground. Is there a touch
necessary during transfer to overground? I am guessing TPTB are not
so dim as to assume that alighting in zone 2 means you got there
without passing through the centre, when journeys avoiding zone 1 are
very much the long way round.

And that's another thing that's been bothering me: if I travel from
Zone 2 *to Zone 3 (e.g. Fulham Broadway to Stratford), does the Oyster
system assume I have travelled via Zone 1, when it is possible to do
that journey without entering Zone 1 at all? If so, why should I be
penalised in that way?

See both MIG's reply to the above, and my reply to 'Just zis Guy'
downthread.

Essentially, once "route based validation" comes into effect, it
should hopefully solve this issue - at least in the case of many such
scenarios - by providing the opportunity for you to prove to the
system that you went one way (i.e. the cheaper non-z1 route) as
opposed to another (i.e. via z1).

(I can see a potential issue in that some peak trains from the WLL
continue straight onto the NLL, so pax wouldn't be interchanging at
Willesden Jn - and I understand the ultimate plan is for there to be
2tph off-peak that run from Clapham Jn via willesden Jn to Stratford.
I suppose the answer is that you can't have everything.)

On Jul 12, 11:55*am, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

If it is indeed so, then that's an interesting development. The 'entry
charge' at NR termini stations where Oyster PAYG was accepted set at
£5 (as opposed to £4) some while back - this is justified as follows:
"The £5 represents the average National Rail cash single fare paid for
a journey in Greater London from these stations."
Source:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...entityNum=3315


I've just realised that *ultra annoyingly* one cannot link directly to
FAQ answers in that new system (as it's browser session based), which
is both bloody stupid and bloody annoying.

Anyway, should you want to you can find it by putting in "Where does a
£5 maximum cash fare apply on National Rail?" into the search box
he
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi....do?newTab=OYS

Just for the record, I'll copy that particular FAQ below:

---quote---
Where does a £5 maximum cash fare apply on National Rail?

If your journey starts or finishes at one of the National Rail
stations below and you do not touch in at the start or touch out at
the end of your pay as you go journey, you will be charged a maximum
cash fare of £5. This will not count towards any daily price cap. The
£5 represents the average National Rail cash single fare paid for a
journey in Greater London from these stations.

A maximum cash fare of £5 applies at the following National Rail
stations:

•Blackfriars
•City Thameslink
•Elephant & Castle
•Euston
•Fenchurch Street
•King’s Cross (Suburban platforms 9-11)
•Liverpool Street
•London Bridge
•Marylebone

At all other stations a maximum cash fare of £4 applies.
---/quote---

The last line is of course of interest here. If the £6.50 'entry
charge' now applies at Watford Jn, then that line is no longer
accurate.