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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
"Tom Barry" wrote And without Boris trumpeting them as meeting a manifesto commitment, to boot. If they'd only had aircon... Among the problems with aircon on the tube lines is - where do you dump the heat? Presumably on, say, the Central or Piccadilly lines it would be possible to devise a system whereby the heat was retained on the train until it got to the open air, and then dumped, but Victoria Line trains stay underground all the time they are in service. No use cooling the trains if you just heat the tunnels even more. Peter |
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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
"Peter Masson" wrote in message
"Tom Barry" wrote And without Boris trumpeting them as meeting a manifesto commitment, to boot. If they'd only had aircon... Among the problems with aircon on the tube lines is - where do you dump the heat? Presumably on, say, the Central or Piccadilly lines it would be possible to devise a system whereby the heat was retained on the train until it got to the open air, and then dumped, but Victoria Line trains stay underground all the time they are in service. No use cooling the trains if you just heat the tunnels even more. That's why the plan is to cool the stations, not the trains, but of course there's less to see with that approach. |
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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
On 23 July, 16:17, "Recliner" wrote:
"Peter Masson" wrote in message "Tom Barry" wrote And without Boris trumpeting them as meeting a manifesto commitment, to boot. *If they'd only had aircon... Among the problems with aircon on the tube lines is - where do you dump the heat? Presumably on, say, the Central or Piccadilly lines it would be possible to devise a system whereby the heat was retained on the train until it got to the open air, and then dumped, but Victoria Line trains stay underground all the time they are in service. No use cooling the trains if you just heat the tunnels even more. That's why the plan is to cool the stations, not the trains, but of course there's less to see with that approach. And the regenerative braking on the new 2009 stock will also mean less heat released into the stations and tunnels in the first place. |
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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
On Jul 23, 4:57*pm, Andy wrote:
And the regenerative braking on the new 2009 stock will also mean less heat released into the stations and tunnels in the first place. Ummm thats not strictly true. Overall you might be generating less heat directly from braking, true, but the type of train, with AC motors, will itself create more heat to be released, including indirectly from braking. Go back to the NR southern third rail zone power upgrade for Mk.1 stock replacement. What was that all about. All the new trains coming in had AC motors, replacing DC motors under the Mk.1s. The big issue was heating effect. AC motor characterisitics are such that it draws a higher constant current - this means the heating effect in lineside traction equipment is much increased - because heat dissipated is I^2*R [I-squared-R]. When the trains are regenerating, the heating effect in lineside eqpt is still I^2*R, it still is still being heated, it does not cool because it is reversed, and it does not cool because t gets no respite (like it does when a friction brake train brakes). A non regen braked train using friction brakes disspates the heat transformed from mechanical energy at the brake shoes/pads - wheel rim/disc interface. A regen braked train convert mechanical energy to electrical, which while contributing a useful energy saving does nonetheless heats lineside gear in doing so. 1967 stock Crompton/Brush LT115 DC traction motors are 53 kW cont. rating. 2009 stock Bombardier Mitrac AC traction motors are 75 kW cont. rating. 1967 stock 8-car trains are MTTMMTTM - 16 motors per train = 16 x 53 kW = 848 kW per train 2009 stock 8-car train are MTMMMMTM - 24 motors per train = 24 x 75 kW = 1800 kW per train All those motrs and traction packs get hot. A 2009 stock train draws over twice the traction load of 1967 stock, and thats before you look at DC v. AC, and before you look at auxiliary loads. All this air-con draws a load that was not there with 1967. Thats never put back into regen braking. Further, the service frequency will be increased, and there are more trains in service at any one time. True they will all regenerate, but there are more of them to accelerate in the first place, and accelerating at a higher rate. It all adds up - I bet one would not be far wrong to say current draw on the whole line with full TPH with 2009 stock may well be 3 times that of 1967 stock at the same voltage. Offset this by increasing from 630 V to 750 V which is a 30% current drop, so overall load doubled. All that heat has to go somehwere. And Peter is quite right, there is nowhere to dump the air-con load. NR southern zone has trackside power distrbution cables everywhere, LU does not, so at east not heating tunels that way. There is a substantial uplift in heating effect from the new trains. Unless my sums are seriously flawed, there'd have to be some seriously hefty cooling gear to cool stations. Gear that itself draws power ... maybe more than the entire train regenerated power is taken up by air- con ? -- Nick |
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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
"D7666" wrote There is a substantial uplift in heating effect from the new trains. Unless my sums are seriously flawed, there'd have to be some seriously hefty cooling gear to cool stations. Gear that itself draws power ... maybe more than the entire train regenerated power is taken up by air- con ? Add to that the congestion relief works at Victoria and the more frequent service, there'll be more passengers pumping kilowatts into the system. Perhaps the Victoria Line needs to be extended into the open air, at least so the piston effect of trains can add ventilation into the tunnels, and ideally so that the next generation (49 stock) can have aircon that takes heat out of the system and dumps it in the open air. Take over Chingford from National Rail? Quadruple Northumberland Park to Cheshunt, with a extended Victoria Line running the local service? Peter |
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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
Peter Masson wrote:
Perhaps the Victoria Line needs to be extended into the open air, at least so the piston effect of trains can add ventilation into the tunnels, and ideally so that the next generation (49 stock) can have aircon that takes heat out of the system and dumps it in the open air. Take over Chingford from National Rail? Quadruple Northumberland Park to Cheshunt, with a extended Victoria Line running the local service? A few years ago, a significant proportion of trains went to Northumberland Park anyway - is that still true? I always wondered why - maybe it is to cool the line. |
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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009, Peter Masson wrote:
"D7666" wrote There is a substantial uplift in heating effect from the new trains. Unless my sums are seriously flawed, there'd have to be some seriously hefty cooling gear to cool stations. Gear that itself draws power ... maybe more than the entire train regenerated power is taken up by air- con ? Add to that the congestion relief works at Victoria and the more frequent service, there'll be more passengers pumping kilowatts into the system. Perhaps the Victoria Line needs to be extended into the open air, at least so the piston effect of trains can add ventilation into the tunnels, and ideally so that the next generation (49 stock) can have aircon that takes heat out of the system and dumps it in the open air. How about putting in some crossovers at Finsbury Park and running some trains from Cockfosters into the Vic core? It's probably too far from the Picc portal to Finsbury Park for this to really help. Could you get a piston effect with some more ventilation shafts with valves attached? Shafts would come in pairs, with a one-way valve on each, so passing trains would push up one and suck it down the other. Integrate some of the shafts with the Lea and New River for water-cooling of the incoming air. tom -- Miscellaneous Terrorists: Ducks | Bird Flu | Avian flu | Jimbo Wales | Backstreet Boys | The Al Queda Network | Tesco -- Uncyclopedia |
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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009, Peter Masson wrote: "D7666" wrote There is a substantial uplift in heating effect from the new trains. Unless my sums are seriously flawed, there'd have to be some seriously hefty cooling gear to cool stations. Gear that itself draws power ... maybe more than the entire train regenerated power is taken up by air- con ? Add to that the congestion relief works at Victoria and the more frequent service, there'll be more passengers pumping kilowatts into the system. Perhaps the Victoria Line needs to be extended into the open air, at least so the piston effect of trains can add ventilation into the tunnels, and ideally so that the next generation (49 stock) can have aircon that takes heat out of the system and dumps it in the open air. How about putting in some crossovers at Finsbury Park and running some trains from Cockfosters into the Vic core? It's probably too far from the Picc portal to Finsbury Park for this to really help. Could you get a piston effect with some more ventilation shafts with valves attached? Shafts would come in pairs, with a one-way valve on each, so passing trains would push up one and suck it down the other. Integrate some of the shafts with the Lea and New River for water-cooling of the incoming air. tom Different signalling and train-operating systems between the two lines would make that difficult. |
#10
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First passenger service journey for LUL 09 stock
Peter Masson wrote:
"D7666" wrote There is a substantial uplift in heating effect from the new trains. Unless my sums are seriously flawed, there'd have to be some seriously hefty cooling gear to cool stations. Gear that itself draws power ... maybe more than the entire train regenerated power is taken up by air- con ? Add to that the congestion relief works at Victoria and the more frequent service, there'll be more passengers pumping kilowatts into the system. Perhaps the Victoria Line needs to be extended into the open air, at least so the piston effect of trains can add ventilation into the tunnels, and ideally so that the next generation (49 stock) can have aircon that takes heat out of the system and dumps it in the open air. Take over Chingford from National Rail? Quadruple Northumberland Park to Cheshunt, with a extended Victoria Line running the local service? Peter Wasn't there talk about building a station around Northumberland Park? |
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