On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, MIG wrote:

On 12 Sep, 14:03, Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 12, 12:58 pm, MIG wrote:

I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended

District/Circle suspended

Hammersmith suspended

Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

What I should have done, and did do on the way back, was

Get on the DLR to Mudchute.
Get the 135 to Aldgate Eastish.

Or:

Get the train to London Bridge
Cycle to Whitechapel Gallery

Faster, cheaper, and more reliable.

I'm not trying to be a smug ******* here, but a a bike is not only the
best way to travel distances up to five miles or so in London, it is *far
and away the best way* to deal with closures.

tom

--
The Impossible is True

On Sep 13, 3:12*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, MIG wrote:

[snip]

What I should have done, and did do on the way back, was

Get on the DLR to Mudchute.
Get the 135 to Aldgate Eastish.

Or:

Get the train to London Bridge
Cycle to Whitechapel Gallery

Faster, cheaper, and more reliable.

I'm not trying to be a smug ******* here, but a a bike is not only the
best way to travel distances up to five miles or so in London, it is *far
and away the best way* to deal with closures.

I shall tell that to (a) my very pregnant friend; (b) my pal who often
ferries his couple of young kids about London on his own by p/t; (c)
the guys I know who do a bit of painting and decorating around London
and take their own kit with them on p/t, (d) the one-time colleague I
knew who'd love to cycle but cannot because of a health issue (which
cannot in any shape or form be argued to be down to his lifestyle);
(e) my elderly relative who's fit and active but for whom cycling
would now simply be beyond them; (f) the very fit guy I know who needs
to get around town and visit various clients whilst looking sharp, who
despite his considerable fitness perspires a great deal and just isn't
willing to arrive looking flustered in his snazzy suit; (g) the
friends I have who used to live in a high-up flat with no space for
leaving their bikes inside anywhere and who gave up on cycling when
they had their bicycles that were well locked up outside nicked and/or
vandalised.

Also, whilst it applies less to weekends, taking a bike on a train is
not always allowed or possible.

I am totally up for evangelising about cycling around town, and I'm
also well aware that one could dismiss various reasons ('excuses' if
you will) for not cycling as being a bit lame - but all the above are
true examples of where cycling falls down somewhat - another obvious
example is 'asynchronous journeys', if I may call them that (that's
not to say cycling isn't possible for some portions thereof but it can
get a bit fiddly). I do think there is the danger that 'cycle
evangelists' can end up sounding smug and putting others off by
claiming it's the be all and end all when it comes to transportation.

Though that all sounds like I'm having a go at you Tom, and that
wasn't really my intention! I won't go back and edit it because the
various points still stand. Some of them can be (and occasionally are)
addressed by the provision of various facilities - a bike shed for a
block of flats (sorry 'executive apartments' as we must call them
now), more secure cycle parking at stations etc. Some perhaps by a
more general change of attitude (e.g. arriving a bit dishevelled at a
clients having cycled there shouldn't be an issue). And in the
specific case of this specific journey, then yes I'll agree with you
(though I do have to say that taking a bike on a train that has no
designated cycle space is not always the most joyous or relaxing
experience, though one acquires various strategies for dealing with
it).

On Sun, 13 Sep 2009, Mizter T wrote:

On Sep 13, 3:12*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, MIG wrote:

[snip]

What I should have done, and did do on the way back, was

Get on the DLR to Mudchute.
Get the 135 to Aldgate Eastish.

Or:

Get the train to London Bridge
Cycle to Whitechapel Gallery

Faster, cheaper, and more reliable.

I'm not trying to be a smug ******* here, but a a bike is not only the
best way to travel distances up to five miles or so in London, it is *far
and away the best way* to deal with closures.

I shall tell that to (a) my very pregnant friend;

Ah, fair enough. Recumbent?

(b) my pal who often ferries his couple of young kids about London on
his own by p/t;

Kids can be carried on or ride bikes; admittedly if they're old enough to
ride but still young, this may be a terrifying and unsafe prospect.

(c) the guys I know who do a bit of painting and decorating around
London and take their own kit with them on p/t,

If it's small enough to carry on PT, it's small enough to fit in panniers,
surely? I can carry more in panniers than in my hands.

(d) the one-time colleague I knew who'd love to cycle but cannot because
of a health issue (which cannot in any shape or form be argued to be
down to his lifestyle);

Again, fair enough.

(e) my elderly relative who's fit and active but for whom cycling would
now simply be beyond them;

Once more again, fair enough.

(f) the very fit guy I know who needs to get around town and visit
various clients whilst looking sharp, who despite his considerable
fitness perspires a great deal and just isn't willing to arrive looking
flustered in his snazzy suit;

I was in this situation this summer: working on a client site in North
Finchley, a seven (?) mile ride with about a million feet of climb, in the
peak of the heat. I rode in a tank-top, or topless (mentally scarring
numerous schoolchildren in the process), locked up round the corner from
the office, gave myself five minutes to cool down, and got changed into a
shirt before going into the office. Sometimes i changed in the street (it
wasn't busy), and sometimes in the toilets, between reception and the
actual client. Even including changing, it was faster than any PT option.

(g) the friends I have who used to live in a high-up flat with no space
for leaving their bikes inside anywhere and who gave up on cycling when
they had their bicycles that were well locked up outside nicked and/or
vandalised.

Unfortunate. The decision to live somewhere with nowhere to keep a bike
was theirs, though (unless it wasn't).

Also, whilst it applies less to weekends, taking a bike on a train is
not always allowed or possible.

That is of course entirely true (unless it's a folding bike - is there any
situation where that isn't allowed?). If the journey is a regular
back-and-forth commute, leaving a bike at one end (or both) may be a way
round this, but i can't honestly say this is a general solution.

I am totally up for evangelising about cycling around town, and I'm
also well aware that one could dismiss various reasons ('excuses' if
you will) for not cycling as being a bit lame - but all the above are
true examples of where cycling falls down somewhat -

Some of them certainly are. You're right that bikes are not helpful for
anyone, and i was wrong to imply that.

But i do think bikes are helpful for many more people than currently use
them, and indeed for the great majority of people who have travel problems
in London. The specific individual we were discussing in this thread, for
example!

another obvious example is 'asynchronous journeys', if I may call them
that (that's not to say cycling isn't possible for some portions thereof
but it can get a bit fiddly).

What's an asynchronous journey?

I do think there is the danger that 'cycle evangelists' can end up
sounding smug and putting others off by claiming it's the be all and end
all when it comes to transportation.

I resemble this remark, of course.

Though that all sounds like I'm having a go at you Tom, and that
wasn't really my intention!

No offence taken at all. You were primarly having a go at my statements,
not me, which is always okay. Your more personal comments were carefully
worded, and, moreover, entirely true!

I won't go back and edit it because the various points still stand. Some
of them can be (and occasionally are) addressed by the provision of
various facilities - a bike shed for a block of flats (sorry 'executive
apartments' as we must call them now), more secure cycle parking at
stations etc. Some perhaps by a more general change of attitude (e.g.
arriving a bit dishevelled at a clients having cycled there shouldn't be
an issue). And in the specific case of this specific journey, then yes
I'll agree with you (though I do have to say that taking a bike on a
train that has no designated cycle space is not always the most joyous
or relaxing experience, though one acquires various strategies for
dealing with it).

Oh god, i know. I came back from Leagrave to Kentish Town with a bike last
night, and was jumping up at every station to see if i needed to shift the
bike from one side of the vestibule to the other, when i'd much rather
have been dozing.

On the way out i was in some kind of train that had a big space by the
toilets (plural - there were two, which i didn't know happened), which was
ideal. Presumably it was really a wheelchair space, but no wheelchairmen
came on board, so it all worked out.

tom

--
Intensive Erfrischung

On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:01:51 +0100, Steve M
wrote:

I'm sure 100+ people could, due to freak circumstances,

Such as a National Rail train arriving?

turn up within 5-10 minutes at Walthamstow, but LU can't (unfortunately)
afford to have an endless supply of buses ready and waiting just in case
this happens. A lot of effort goes into planning rail replacement
services and I think, most of the time, they get it right, or not far
off.

The lack of tube services made it onto Test Match Special yesterday, with
at least one commentator arriving late.

It's hard to plan for everything, but major sporting events are easy to
predict and plan for.

Colin McKenzie



--
No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at the
population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as walking.
Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

Colin McKenzie wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:01:51 +0100, Steve M
wrote:

I'm sure 100+ people could, due to freak circumstances,

Such as a National Rail train arriving?

turn up within 5-10 minutes at Walthamstow, but LU can't
(unfortunately) afford to have an endless supply of buses ready and
waiting just in case this happens. A lot of effort goes into planning
rail replacement services and I think, most of the time, they get it
right, or not far off.

The lack of tube services made it onto Test Match Special yesterday,
with at least one commentator arriving late.

It's hard to plan for everything, but major sporting events are easy to
predict and plan for.

Colin McKenzie




Colin,

I'm glad you realise it's hard to plan for everything. I'm sure you
understand LU planners take into account events of all shapes and sizes
across London when thinking about closures, but it's impossible to
please all of the people all of the time. As to the cricket, all the
publicity that went out advised customers to use Baker Street, which is
only a short walk away from Lord's. I'm sure you get as annoyed as I do
with all the "check before you travel" announcements, but these really
are made for your benefit, and you should listen to them.

Were there to be no closures taking place alongside sporting events of
any shape or size in London, the upgrades would take a very long time to
complete.

Cheers

Steve M

On Sep 13, 4:06*pm, Mizter T wrote:
I'm not trying to be a smug ******* here, but a a bike is not only the
best way to travel distances up to five miles or so in London, it is *far
and away the best way* to deal with closures.

I shall tell that to (a) my very pregnant friend; (b) my pal who often
ferries his couple of young kids about London on his own by p/t; (c)
the guys I know who do a bit of painting and decorating around London
and take their own kit with them on p/t, (d) the one-time colleague I
knew who'd love to cycle but cannot because of a health issue (which
cannot in any shape or form be argued to be down to his lifestyle);
(e) my elderly relative who's fit and active but for whom cycling
would now simply be beyond them; (f) the very fit guy I know who needs
to get around town and visit various clients whilst looking sharp, who
despite his considerable fitness perspires a great deal and just isn't
willing to arrive looking flustered in his snazzy suit; (g) the
friends I have who used to live in a high-up flat with no space for
leaving their bikes inside anywhere and who gave up on cycling when
they had their bicycles that were well locked up outside nicked and/or
vandalised.

In addition to Tom's comments, surely gentlemen c and f won't be hit
by the closures, because they'll be working during the working week
when the tubes aren't closed?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:51:47 -0700 (PDT)
John B wrote:
In addition to Tom's comments, surely gentlemen c and f won't be hit
by the closures, because they'll be working during the working week
when the tubes aren't closed?

Right, because no one in the 21st century works weekends.

B2003

John B wrote:

(c)
the guys I know who do a bit of painting and decorating around London
and take their own kit with them on p/t,
(f) the very fit guy I know who needs
to get around town and visit various clients whilst looking sharp, who
despite his considerable fitness perspires a great deal and just isn't
willing to arrive looking flustered in his snazzy suit;

In addition to Tom's comments, surely gentlemen c and f won't be hit
by the closures, because they'll be working during the working week
when the tubes aren't closed?

I've lost count of the number of painters, decorators and builders I've
found working weekends when I've been canvassing. Some are doing so to get
the project completed faster, others because the clients want to be in when
there are strangers in the home, others because the clients *need* to be in
because of the problems of accessing flat blocks and gates when there's
no-one inside the relevant flat, and others just because they take on extra
work.

And similarly (f) types can and do work weekends - in any customer service
job being able to see the clients when the clients have time, rather than
expecting the clients to take time off work, is helpful.

Paul Corfield wrote:

There are huge planning and booking timescales
mandated on the Infracos so far as LUL closures are concerned. There are
also rules about avoiding too many journey opportunities being lost. The
process does include liaison with Network Rail, DLR and the TOCs to try
to ensure that viable opportunities remain for people to get about. In
addition there has to be a sanity check with the bus companies to make
sure they can resource the envisaged scale of rail replacement services.
I appreciate that it can look as if no one has bothered to talk to one
another but the opposite is usually true.

Whilst I appreciate there is co-ordination, one thing that really frustrates
passengers is the lack of information about TfL closures (and other TOCs)
when they turn up at their local station, especially when the service there
isn't running (but even when it is it can be unhelpful - I've been caught
out by Jubilee line closures where the first I've been told about them is
when I've got to the concourse at Stratford). I remember in past years
seeing posters about weekend closures on the Northern Line up at least as
far south as Sutton and of course there used to be versions of the network
connections map showing *all* engineering works in the region, not just the
ones on the local TOC's services. But now it's a very partial map that means
journeys across town become pot luck and emergency forward planning to go to
use a different interchange isn't possible. When the National Express
Stratford-Ilford route is down people in Forest Gate are unlikely to trek
down to Upton Park (or take the GOBLIN rail replacement bus to Barking)
because they have no confidence they will find the District Line running
when they get there. So instead they have to use the 25 bus which comes to
the second problem - National Express seem to think the 25 service as it is
is an adequate substitute for their weekend service (which is frequently ram
packed anyway) or seem to believe that the way to handle overcrowding is to
make things so unbearable to drive people away.

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 10:42:20PM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

I appreciate DLR is the new kid on the block but they do seem able to
dismantle and reconstruct their network with relatively little pain and
disruption.

They do, of course, have rather better access to their stuff, and more
room to work in once they're on site.

--
David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat

All children should be aptitude-tested at an early age and,
if their main or only aptitude is for marketing, drowned.