I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended
District/Circle suspended
Hammersmith suspended

Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

I am just bewildered by it all. Shouldn't we expect something a bit
better than this?

On Sep 12, 12:58 pm, MIG wrote:
I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended

Several portions thereof are suspended, but it's not a system wide
suspension (more on this in a mo).

District/Circle suspended

District suspended east of Tower Hill.

Hammersmith suspended

H&C suspended east of Liverpool Street - still running from the City
through to Hammersmith.


Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

Wembley Park to Uxbridge and Northwood - which is a pretty crucial
chunk of the line.


I am just bewildered by it all. Shouldn't we expect something a bit
better than this?

My basic take on the weekend closures is that it's for the greater
good - the improvements will come and we'll all benefit in the end,
'short-term pain long-term gain' type stuff. One might well say that's
a naive take on things, and it's always "pie tomorrow".

With regards to your journey, I think I might head to London Bridge
and then take the 40 bus on from there to Aldgate and then walk, or
maybe a bus up Bishopsgate to Liverpool Street station then walk, or
possibly just walk from London Bridge. Or take the DLR from Lewisham-
Mudchute, DLR replacement bus Mudchute-Westferry, then DLR again to
Shadwell (for the short walk to Whitechapel). Both rather less than
ideal, no doubt.

~ ~ ~

With regards to the DLR, I thought DLR suspensions were supposed to
appear on the illustrated Tube map on the service update pages along
with the Tube lines he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravel...e/default.html

I know London Overground suspensions don't appear, which is stupid
because they should, but I'm sure DLR closures used to appear here -
am I making this up?

One instead has to click on the DLR tab to get the full low down. The
lack of any graphical illustration as to what's going on doesn't help
matters given the extent of the suspensions - the list of closed
routes just serves to boggle my mind somewhat. For the record, this is
what the summary page has to say:

Source:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravel...r/default.html
---quote---
DOCKLANDS LIGHT RAILWAY: Saturday 12 and Sunday 13 September,
suspended between London City Airport and Blackwall, between Beckton
and Blackwall, between Poplar and Mudchute and between Westferry and
Mudchute. Sunday, also suspended between Bow Church and Stratford.
Rail replacement bus services operate.
---/quote---

There is a link to "more information", which basically lists the
replacement buses operating, but I still find it hard to digest all
that test - I'd far rather just see it shown on a map.

~ ~ ~

One other thing - either replacement bus 'service three' is routed a
rather bizarre way around the Isle of Dogs, or rather more likely the
information is written in a rather confusing manner - the following is
taken from the "more information" page here http://tinyurl.com/
r6uupy:

---quote---
[...]
Service two: between Island Gardens and Beckton, calling at Mudchute,
Crossharbour, South Quay, Canary Wharf, Westferry, Blackwall, East
India, Canning Town, Royal Victoria, Custom House, Prince Regent,
Royal Albert, Beckton Park, Cyprus and Gallions Reach.

Service three (Saturday 0830-1930 Sunday 0930-1930): between Westferry
and Island Gardens, Canary Wharf, South Quay, Crossharbour and
Mudchute.
[...]
---/quote---

(I included 'service two' just to show that there was still a bus that
served Mudchute outside the times service three is running.)

Presumably 'service three' actually goes from Westferry to Canary
Whard, then South Quay, Crossharbour and Mudchute - but if you don't
read between the lines it looks as though it might go on a rather
crazy circular tour of the Isle of Dogs. This is the kind of badly
written stuff we get from the TOCs - I expect better of TfL. (Indeed I
hope for better from the TOCs too, but experience shows they're not
very good at conveying clear information about such things.)

Paul Corfield wrote:

I was contemplating popping out this afternoon to do some photography
but I doubt my blood pressure would survive the ordeal of trying to
travel anywhere.

.... and getting searched by the terrorist police every 20 minutes.

On 12 Sep, 14:03, Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 12, 12:58 pm, MIG wrote:

I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended

Several portions thereof are suspended, but it's not a system wide
suspension (more on this in a mo).

Perhaps I should hae said "severed", and the other lines suspended on
the parts I needed to use.


District/Circle suspended

District suspended east of Tower Hill.

Hammersmith suspended

H&C suspended east of Liverpool Street - still running from the City
through to Hammersmith.

True, but I was thinking of the particular journey I was planning how
all routes in that direction seemed to be gone.




Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

Wembley Park to Uxbridge and Northwood - which is a pretty crucial
chunk of the line.



I am just bewildered by it all. *Shouldn't we expect something a bit
better than this?

My basic take on the weekend closures is that it's for the greater
good - the improvements will come and we'll all benefit in the end,
'short-term pain long-term gain' type stuff. One might well say that's
a naive take on things, and it's always "pie tomorrow".

With regards to your journey, I think I might head to London Bridge
and then take the 40 bus on from there to Aldgate and then walk, or
maybe a bus up Bishopsgate to Liverpool Street station then walk, or
possibly just walk from London Bridge. Or take the DLR from Lewisham-
Mudchute, DLR replacement bus Mudchute-Westferry, then DLR again to
Shadwell (for the short walk to Whitechapel). Both rather less than
ideal, no doubt.

What I should have done, and did do on the way back, was

Get on the DLR to Mudchute.

Get the 135 to Aldgate Eastish.

Walk/bus along to Whitechapel Gallery area. Not too bad, but a
hostage to traffic and I didn't think of it till passing a 135 stop on
a replacement bus that was too crowded to get off of (people standing/
sitting on the stairs etc).



~ ~ ~

With regards to the DLR, I thought DLR suspensions were supposed to
appear on the illustrated Tube map on the service update pages along
with the Tube lines hehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravel...e/default.html

I know London Overground suspensions don't appear, which is stupid
because they should, but I'm sure DLR closures used to appear here -
am I making this up?

One instead has to click on the DLR tab to get the full low down. The
lack of any graphical illustration as to what's going on doesn't help
matters given the extent of the suspensions - the list of closed
routes just serves to boggle my mind somewhat. For the record, this is
what the summary page has to say:

Source:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravel...r/default.html
---quote---
DOCKLANDS LIGHT RAILWAY: Saturday 12 and Sunday 13 September,
suspended between London City Airport and Blackwall, between Beckton
and Blackwall, between Poplar and Mudchute and between Westferry and
Mudchute. Sunday, also suspended between Bow Church and Stratford.
Rail replacement bus services operate.
---/quote---

There is a link to "more information", which basically lists the
replacement buses operating, but I still find it hard to digest all
that test - I'd far rather just see it shown on a map.

~ ~ ~

One other thing - either replacement bus 'service three' is routed a
rather bizarre way around the Isle of Dogs, or rather more likely the
information is written in a rather confusing manner - the following is
taken from the "more information" page here http://tinyurl.com/
r6uupy:

---quote---
[...]
Service two: between Island Gardens and Beckton, calling at Mudchute,
Crossharbour, South Quay, Canary Wharf, Westferry, Blackwall, East
India, Canning Town, Royal Victoria, Custom House, Prince Regent,
Royal Albert, Beckton Park, Cyprus and Gallions Reach.

Service three (Saturday 0830-1930 Sunday 0930-1930): between Westferry
and Island Gardens, Canary Wharf, South Quay, Crossharbour and
Mudchute.
[...]
---/quote---

(I included 'service two' just to show that there was still a bus that
served Mudchute outside the times service three is running.)

Presumably 'service three' actually goes from Westferry to Canary
Whard, then South Quay, Crossharbour and Mudchute - but if you don't
read between the lines it looks as though it might go on a rather
crazy circular tour of the Isle of Dogs. This is the kind of badly
written stuff we get from the TOCs - I expect better of TfL. (Indeed I
hope for better from the TOCs too, but experience shows they're not
very good at conveying clear information about such things.)

Just to add to your confusion, the replacement bus I got on the way up
did none of those things. I think it may have been a service 2,
diverted due to overcrowding or something, but it went direct from
Crossharbour to Canary Wharf, so didn't do South Quay but came into
Canary Wharf from the east side.

On 12 Sep, 17:09, MIG wrote:
On 12 Sep, 14:03, Mizter T wrote:
chop

---quote---
[...]
Service two: between Island Gardens and Beckton, calling at Mudchute,
Crossharbour, South Quay, Canary Wharf, Westferry, Blackwall, East
India, Canning Town, Royal Victoria, Custom House, Prince Regent,
Royal Albert, Beckton Park, Cyprus and Gallions Reach.

Service three (Saturday 0830-1930 Sunday 0930-1930): between Westferry
and Island Gardens, Canary Wharf, South Quay, Crossharbour and
Mudchute.
[...]
---/quote---

(I included 'service two' just to show that there was still a bus that
served Mudchute outside the times service three is running.)

Presumably 'service three' actually goes from Westferry to Canary
Whard, then South Quay, Crossharbour and Mudchute - but if you don't
read between the lines it looks as though it might go on a rather
crazy circular tour of the Isle of Dogs. This is the kind of badly
written stuff we get from the TOCs - I expect better of TfL. (Indeed I
hope for better from the TOCs too, but experience shows they're not
very good at conveying clear information about such things.)

Just to add to your confusion, the replacement bus I got on the way up
did none of those things. *I think it may have been a service 2,
diverted due to overcrowding or something, but it went direct from
Crossharbour to Canary Wharf, so didn't do South Quay but came into
Canary Wharf from the east side.

Oh, and I should have said that it went past Blackwall station on its
way into Canary Wharf (after Crossharbour), but didn't stop. I don't
know if it went back there after I bailed out, but one could also get
there by train from Westferry.

Train services seemed to be Tower Gateway to Blackwall and Bank to
Stratford.

On Sep 12, 1:41*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 04:58:45 -0700 (PDT), MIG

wrote:
I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended
District/Circle suspended
Hammersmith suspended

Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

I am just bewildered by it all. *Shouldn't we expect something a bit
better than this?

In short - yes. While I know the work has to be done I am fed up to the
back teeth with it all. I loathe rail replacement services. This is now
the 7th weekend out of 8 consecutive weekends when there has been no
Victoria Line service at my end of the line. God knows what it is like
for the poor souls who rely on the Jubilee Line.


Personally I think the biggest problem for many areas is the lack of
coordination between National Rail and LU as to when closures take
place. There have been occasions this year when both the Bakerloo / DC
lines and the Met line have been closed at the same time and these two
route run fairly close most of the way out of London. The same applies
to the Victoria where on occasion the closures have coincided with the
Liverpool Street - Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale / Walthamstow being
closed.

I suppose we are now paying the penalty for the lack of renewal work
done in past years and playing catch up is going to be painful until
it is finished. I do wonder if some summertime big-bang projects might
be worthwhile, in a similar vein to the Jubilee lengthening closure
between Christmas and New Year, but instead over the week before the
August Bank Holiday, when I understand the Underground is at its
quietest.

Paul Corfield wrote:


The problem with August closures is that while the peak is quieter the
off peak most certainly is not. Having chunks of the Tube shut down for
weeks during the peak holiday season is perhaps not the best idea. There
isn't an ideal time to do it but Christmas and New Year is probably
better although weather can play havoc with the best laid plans. Given
my experience this morning it is quite evident that whoever is "in
charge" (hah) of rail replacements can't quite anticipate (despite
months of practice) that roundly 60-70 people can turn up to travel in
the space of 5-10 minutes around 0850 in the morning in Walthamstow.
Sending one partly filled double decker bus to shift that sort of crowd
doesn't work. If they can't get that right how the heck would they cope
with a typical AM or PM peak loading?


I'm sure 100+ people could, due to freak circumstances, turn up within
5-10 minutes at Walthamstow, but LU can't (unfortunately) afford to have
an endless supply of buses ready and waiting just in case this happens.
A lot of effort goes into planning rail replacement services and I
think, most of the time, they get it right, or not far off.

While there are sometimes occasions where National Express East Anglia
and the Victoria Line are closed at the same time, in the majority of
cases they are not. Ticket acceptance is always arranged on NXEA, so the
quickest route for most from Walthamstow into Central London is on the
Chingford - Liverpool Street service. The overall *strategy* takes this
into account and bus frequencies are planned with this in mind. Even so,
I believe the replacement bus is scheduled to run at least every 5
minutes from Walthamstow (and probably more often) even early in the
morning, so if gaps are occuring, please get in touch with the relevant
team and they can investigate.

Cheers

Steve M

On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:42:20 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

While I am fed up with the Victoria Line closures I suspect we have seen
nothing yet in terms of network disruption. I understand the Walthamstow
crossover has to be replaced in 2011 so I'll have no service at all for
a few weeks when that happens.

Yer wot?

Why should it take a few weeks to replace a single piece of pointwork
like for like? It seems like a single weekend job.

Or is there more to it than that?

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sep 12, 10:42*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 12:13:22 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

Personally I think the biggest problem for many areas is the lack of
coordination between National Rail and LU as to when closures take
place. There have been occasions this year when both the Bakerloo / DC
lines and the Met line have been closed at the same time and these two
route run fairly close most of the way out of London. The same applies
to the Victoria where on occasion the closures have coincided with the
Liverpool Street - Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale / Walthamstow being
closed.

While you are correct about the parallel closures you're right about the
co-ordination point. There are huge planning and booking timescales
mandated on the Infracos so far as LUL closures are concerned. There are
also rules about avoiding too many journey opportunities being lost. The
process does include liaison with Network Rail, DLR and the TOCs to try
to ensure that viable opportunities remain for people to get about. In
addition there has to be a sanity check with the bus companies to make
sure they can resource the envisaged scale of rail replacement services.
I appreciate that it can look as if no one has bothered to talk to one
another but the opposite is usually true.

However there are occasions when things change and that can really
knacker things. Network Rail seem (to me) to be a law unto themselves in
terms of just postponing and rescheduling stuff. The woeful performance
on the GOBLIN resignalling, which is now months late, is my nearest
example and I am not impressed given what it is doing to plans to give
us a better, more frequent service.

I suppose we are now paying the penalty for the lack of renewal work
done in past years and playing catch up is going to be painful until
it is finished. I do wonder if some summertime big-bang projects might
be worthwhile, in a similar vein to the Jubilee lengthening closure
between Christmas and New Year, but instead over the week before the
August Bank Holiday, when I understand the Underground is at its
quietest.

I think you're partly right in your first sentence. A lot of what is
happening is not renewal work, it is enhancement and new line works. I
am very grateful that we are getting that money spent but the relative
efficiency with which the work is delivered is the real issue. I
appreciate DLR is the new kid on the block but they do seem able to
dismantle and reconstruct their network with relatively little pain and
disruption. Everyone else is just so much worse. *


Does renewal work really mean less disruption than enhancement? Taking
the Victoria line as an example, the existing signalling and trains
are at the end of their life and so need to be replaced. Surely there
is little difference in the disruption between introducing new
hardware with enhanced capacity or new hardware with the same
capacity. I do agree that some disruption will be purely down to
enhancement, the big one being on the SSL and their problems of
introducing longer trains. Station closures for capacity enhancement
already happen (such as Shepherd's Bush) but these are easier to cope
with as only local buses are needed.

While I am fed up with the Victoria Line closures I suspect we have seen
nothing yet in terms of network disruption. I understand the Walthamstow
crossover has to be replaced in 2011 so I'll have no service at all for
a few weeks when that happens.

A few weeks? The Piccadilly Circus crossover on the Bakerloo seemed to
need four days for a single crossover, so why so long for a scissors
crossover? Is the Brixton crossover due for replacement too?


The problem with August closures is that while the peak is quieter the
off peak most certainly is not. Having chunks of the Tube shut down for
weeks during the peak holiday season is perhaps not the best idea. There
isn't an ideal time to do it but Christmas and New Year is probably
better although weather can play havoc with the best laid plans. *

But peak loadings are still higher than off-peak. If you look at the
number of trains in service (as a guide to demand), the weekday off-
peak is nearly the same as the Saturday now (details are in the July
2009 Underground News) and on some lines Saturday actually has a more
frequent service. So if it is OK to disrupt these Saturday passengers,
why not the off-peak weekday ones? Closures might only be on parts of
the lines and more trains could potentially be run on other lines off-
peak to take some of the passengers. Maybe the closures could be
limited to the outer zones.

If they can't get that right how the heck would they cope
with a typical AM or PM peak loading?


The same way that the Central line coped during the traction motor
problems, people will adapt their journeys or plan holidays if there
is a week long closure in summer.

On Sep 13, 11:26*am, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:01:51 +0100, Steve M
wrote:





Paul Corfield wrote:

The problem with August closures is that while the peak is quieter the
off peak most certainly is not. Having chunks of the Tube shut down for
weeks during the peak holiday season is perhaps not the best idea. There
isn't an ideal time to do it but Christmas and New Year is probably
better although weather can play havoc with the best laid plans. *Given
my experience this morning it is quite evident that whoever is "in
charge" (hah) of rail replacements can't quite anticipate (despite
months of practice) that roundly 60-70 people can turn up to travel in
the space of 5-10 minutes around 0850 in the morning in Walthamstow.
Sending one partly filled double decker bus to shift that sort of crowd
doesn't work. If they can't get that right how the heck would they cope
with a typical AM or PM peak loading?


I cannot recall ever seeing ticket acceptance being advertised on the
Chingford line - not in official documents that I see or at Walthamstow
or announced anywhere. *If the strategy is to persuade people to use the
"overhead" then it's failing as everything is focused on getting people
on the buses.


LU tickets have valid from Walthamstow Central - Liverpool street
since well before PAYG on Oyster. The fact that such validity isn't
advertised is another matter.