MIG wrote:

In another thread, someone posted the result of an FOI request, which
included a TfL staff briefing, which included this statement.

"An Oyster Extension Permit is only needed when a journey is started
within the zones covered by a Travelcard at a LU/London Overground or
DLR station and involves travel by National Rail beyond its validity."

What happens at the joint stations like Stratford or Richmond? Is there a
consistent rule or does the passenger have to know how the station has been
designated?

MIG wrote:

Wherever I get on, if it's the weekend and I change at Kings Cross,
then presumably, even if I think my journey started at Stratford, the
journey that counts for the gripper starts at Kings Cross NR and
doesn't need an OEP, or does it?

I think it definitely does. The wording on the public Oyster site is:

"You only need to set an Oyster Extension Permit when you start a journey
within the zones covered by your Travelcard and want to travel outside those
zones on National Rail." It doesn't differentiate between NR and TfL
services at start of journey.

The internal briefing for TfL staff referred to earlier seems to be badly
written - but clearly they aren't operating NR stations. ISTM that briefing
NR and TfL staff differently is just symptomatic of the parochial nature of
these organisations...

Paul S

MIG wrote:

Well, in the OEP staff briefing it says, in one place

"Once the OEP is loaded, when the customer touches-in to start a
journey even if it is within a Zone covered by their Season ticket, an
entry charge will be deducted from the card.
If they touch-out still within the Zonal coverage of their Season
ticket, the entry charge will be refunded and the OEP will remain on
the card. If they touch-out in another Zone the fare for the
additional travel will be deducted from the entry charge, the PAYG
balance will be adjusted accordingly and the OEP will be cancelled."

Okay the nightmare station for Oyster - Wimbledon. What if you have a stored
OEP but enter the barriers to use the tram?

JS wrote:

I suspect that because there are many National Rail stations where it
is not possible to set an OEP they cannot enforce penalty fares from
these stations.and as this would be even more confuriog, the TOCs can
only insist on OEPs on journeys starting from TfL stations.

Just a reminder - OEPs were insisted on by the TOCs as part of the
payg extension agreement. Penalty fares / prosecutions will be
issued / instigated by the TOCs and not TfL.

So the interesting legal point - can a TOC legally enforce a penalty fare if
it can be shown that the correct ticket was not available to passengers at
the starting station?

On 3 Jan, 13:03, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 04:53:52 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
My initial reaction to the news of OEPs was that TOCs had been forced
to accept Oyster and were determined to sabotage it by making it
unusable. *That opinion hasn't changed. *TfL's willingness to go along
with it will end up killing off Oyster for TfL as well. *Perhaps that
suits a political agenda.

Care to speculate on what that political agenda might be?

Whatever it is, it's probably out of date. I wonder if, given the
lack of publicity and facilities, OEPs will be quietly abandoned (and
not enforced) anyway for the sake of preserving the usability of
Oyster. There may have been a time when sabotaging everything
associated with the old regime seemed like a Good Idea, but it's now
too expensive. Getting rid of some bendys is probably more than
enough.

On 3 Jan, 13:11, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:
JS wrote:
I suspect that because there are many National Rail stations where it
is not possible to set an OEP they cannot enforce penalty fares from
these stations.and as this would be even more confuriog, the TOCs can
only insist on OEPs on journeys starting from TfL stations.
Just a reminder - OEPs were insisted on by the TOCs as part of the
payg extension agreement. *Penalty fares / prosecutions will be
issued / instigated by the TOCs and not TfL.

So the interesting legal point - can a TOC legally enforce a penalty fare if
it can be shown that the correct ticket was not available to passengers at
the starting station?

I suspect that a very high proportion of PFs are overturned when
challenged (although most may not be challenged), and that this is
mainly on technicalities, such as the display of warnings at
interchanges and so on, making their issue generally invalid
regardless of whether the punter is otherwise bang to rights.

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
MIG wrote:

In another thread, someone posted the result of an FOI request, which
included a TfL staff briefing, which included this statement.

"An Oyster Extension Permit is only needed when a journey is started
within the zones covered by a Travelcard at a LU/London Overground or
DLR station and involves travel by National Rail beyond its
validity."

What happens at the joint stations like Stratford or Richmond? Is
there a consistent rule or does the passenger have to know how the
station has been designated?

That statement above is probably wrong. It is a staff briefing note for TfL
staff. The public instructions are different as I've just posted in a reply
to MIG...

Paul S

On 3 Jan, 13:11, MIG wrote:

....I wonder if, given the lack of publicity and facilities, OEPs will be quietly abandoned (and
not enforced) anyway for the sake of preserving the usability of
Oyster.......

We can live in hope....

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 03:20:19 -0800 (PST), Daniel wrote:

It seems bonkers to me too, but has it ever been suggested that NR
stations can issue OEPs?

Could there also be some cross-london journeys where travelcard
holders without the central zones on their tickets could require two
(or more) OEPs (due to the original OEP being cancelled by a gateline
en-route)? I suspect that ticket-holders with this type of ticket
could see some non-optimal charges as well.

Yes, I think that could happen. For example, the holder of a Z23
Travelcard wishes to travel from Finsbury Park (Z2) to Thornton Heath
(Z4), changing at Moorgate (Z1) and Balham (Z2). An OEP is needed from
the start of the journey, due to starting at a LU station and
travelling out-of-zone on FCC. However, this OEP is removed by the
touch-out at Balham (LU) (due to having travelled out-of-zone), so a
second OEP needs to be added in order to avoid a PF when travelling
out-of-zone (again...) to Thornton Heath on Southern.

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 04:53:52 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

My initial reaction to the news of OEPs was that TOCs had been forced
to accept Oyster and were determined to sabotage it by making it
unusable. That opinion hasn't changed. TfL's willingness to go along
with it will end up killing off Oyster for TfL as well. Perhaps that
suits a political agenda.

Care to speculate on what that political agenda might be?

There's no need to speculate any further than 'Boris gets a tick in the
box marked 'manifesto commitments' and damn the details'. It's not that
the Oyster-on-NR rollout is a bad thing, quite the opposite, it's just
got all the hallmarks of having more regard for public image than public
transport, which is why it doesn't take very long to discover the bits
that haven't been thought through from the point of view of usability.
Mind you, that's essential Boris from top to toe.

Tom