On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:34:40 +0100
"Tim Fenton" wrote:
Dave Hill's London Blog concludes so, from recent comments and articles:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehil...on-london-publ
c-transport-fares

Boris potentially proving yet again that it is actually possibly to make
Ken Livingstone seem like a forward thinking intellectual in retrospect.
How many more years until we can vote this buffoon out?

B2003

wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:34:40 +0100
"Tim Fenton" wrote:
Dave Hill's London Blog concludes so, from recent comments and articles:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehil...on-london-publ
c-transport-fares

Boris potentially proving yet again that it is actually possibly to make
Ken Livingstone seem like a forward thinking intellectual in retrospect.

On public transport he pretty much was (things like the Overground and
ELL are related to his thinking on the matter a quarter of a century
ago, just as the Congestion Charge has its roots in his experience of
anti-roads protests in the early 1970s), although it's possible to
over-estimate his personal expertise in the matter. The big difference
is that he realised his limits and the return on investment of employing
competent staff to run it for him.

Boris appears to have no interest in the subject whatsoever (as can be
seen by appointing someone younger than me with no external interest
declarations other than 'Conservative Party' as his Transport Advisor,
although assuming that he'll do anything to avoid being beastly to
motorists is a fairly reasonable ground rule.

I'm pretty sure from all that's gone on that Boris actually dislikes
public transport on principle - he's still complaining about dirty bus
exhausts, for instance, completely oblivious to the Euro emission
standards in force and the negative air-quality impacts of diesel cars.
This is tabloid ranting comment column grade ignorance and failure to
see the bigger picture.

Tom

On Sep 10, 10:51*am, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:34:40 +0100

"Tim Fenton" wrote:
Dave Hill's London Blog concludes so, from recent comments and articles:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehil...oris-johnson-l...
c-transport-fares

Or via http://tinyurl.com/m53plb


Boris potentially proving yet again that it is actually possibly to make
Ken Livingstone seem like a forward thinking intellectual in retrospect.
How many more years until we can vote this buffoon out?

Afraid a forthcoming fare rise is no surprise. There is also the
electoral timetable to consider, as Paul C has pointed out in the past
- significant fare rises in January 2011 or 2012 will be too close to
the May 2012 Mayoral election.

Dave Hill refers to Boris saying "Why shouldn't I save up the good
news?" when pressed on the issue during yesterday's Mayor's Question
Time. I dare say the "good news" that Boris is keen to announce is
that agreement has finally been reached with the mainline TOCs that
Oyster Pay-as-you-go will be accepted across all National Rail routes
in London (though it's far from clear that the final deal has yet been
signed - last minute wrangling is quite possible) - the Mayor will
make a massive fanfare of this, and the hope will presumably be that
it takes the limelight whilst the fare rises are shoved backstage.

P.S. Here's the link to Walmar's Evening Standard article on the topic
(referred to by Dave Hill):
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ils/article.do

Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 10, 10:51 am, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:34:40 +0100

"Tim Fenton" wrote:
Dave Hill's London Blog concludes so, from recent comments and
articles:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehil...oris-johnson-l...
c-transport-fares

Or via http://tinyurl.com/m53plb


Boris potentially proving yet again that it is actually possibly to
make Ken Livingstone seem like a forward thinking intellectual in
retrospect. How many more years until we can vote this buffoon out?

Afraid a forthcoming fare rise is no surprise. There is also the
electoral timetable to consider, as Paul C has pointed out in the past
- significant fare rises in January 2011 or 2012 will be too close to
the May 2012 Mayoral election.

Dave Hill refers to Boris saying "Why shouldn't I save up the good
news?" when pressed on the issue during yesterday's Mayor's Question
Time. I dare say the "good news" that Boris is keen to announce is
that agreement has finally been reached with the mainline TOCs that
Oyster Pay-as-you-go will be accepted across all National Rail routes
in London (though it's far from clear that the final deal has yet been
signed - last minute wrangling is quite possible) - the Mayor will
make a massive fanfare of this, and the hope will presumably be that
it takes the limelight whilst the fare rises are shoved backstage.

The 'inflation + 1%', expected to be -0.4%, cannot cause a reduction in
individual PAYG fares anyway for the reasons discussed before, that single
fares aren't high enough and they only use whole 10p steps. So the best that
can be expected is a freeze.

In fact I expect most of the daily caps aren't high enough to go down
either, except perhaps the furthest extremities outside the basic 6 zones...

Paul S

Paul Scott wrote:


The 'inflation + 1%', expected to be -0.4%, cannot cause a reduction in
individual PAYG fares anyway for the reasons discussed before, that single
fares aren't high enough and they only use whole 10p steps. So the best that
can be expected is a freeze.

In fact I expect most of the daily caps aren't high enough to go down
either, except perhaps the furthest extremities outside the basic 6 zones...

Paul S



Agreed, but it would be nice if someone looked at, say, last year's
increase and this years and made the resulting cumulative increase
approximate to (RPIlastyear+1)*(RPIthisyear+1).

However, I suspect what will happen is that the lot will go up 10p or
more. I've long speculated that we'll have at least a £1.40 single
Oyster PAYG bus fare by the time Boris has finished with us.

Still, it's one way of reducing the price differential with National
Rail PAYG, raise Tube prices to NR levels!

Tom

On Sep 10, 12:38*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

[snip]

The 'inflation + 1%', expected to be -0.4%, cannot cause a reduction in
individual PAYG fares anyway for the reasons discussed before, that single
fares aren't high enough and they only use whole 10p steps. So the best that
can be expected is a freeze.

In fact I expect most of the daily caps aren't high enough to go down
either, except perhaps the furthest extremities outside the basic 6 zones....

All good and well, but my understanding is that TfL fares are not
subject to any regulatory regime as such - i.e. unlike National Rail
fares - so the whole forthcoming issue of enforced 'inflation-linked
decreases' (YKWIM!) doesn't apply, at least not to wholly TfL fares.

(The current Oyster price caps are of course set 50p below the quasi-
equivalent Day Travelcard price, though I wouldn't be entirely
surprised if post-January there are two caps - the present one at 50p
less than the Travelcard, plus a cap that includes NR travel and is
set at the same price as a Travelcard. We shall see...)

On Sep 10, 12:07*pm, Mizter T wrote:
Dave Hill refers to Boris saying "Why shouldn't I save up the good
news?" when pressed on the issue during yesterday's Mayor's Question
Time. I dare say the "good news" that Boris is keen to announce is
that agreement has finally been reached with the mainline TOCs that
Oyster Pay-as-you-go will be accepted across all National Rail routes
in London (though it's far from clear that the final deal has yet been
signed - last minute wrangling is quite possible) - the Mayor will
make a massive fanfare of this, and the hope will presumably be that
it takes the limelight whilst the fare rises are shoved backstage.

Yesterday at a technical group in London heard a person from ATOC say
that PAYG on rail in London is going ahead.

On Sep 10, 4:09*pm, ticketyboo wrote:

On Sep 10, 12:07*pm, Mizter T wrote:
Dave Hill refers to Boris saying "Why shouldn't I save up the good
news?" when pressed on the issue during yesterday's Mayor's Question
Time. I dare say the "good news" that Boris is keen to announce is
that agreement has finally been reached with the mainline TOCs that
Oyster Pay-as-you-go will be accepted across all National Rail routes
in London (though it's far from clear that the final deal has yet been
signed - last minute wrangling is quite possible) - the Mayor will
make a massive fanfare of this, and the hope will presumably be that
it takes the limelight whilst the fare rises are shoved backstage.

Yesterday at a technical group in London heard a person from ATOC say
that PAYG on rail in London is going ahead.

I'm in no doubt that it is - it's just a question of when. January
2010 is when it should go live (well, it should have happened ages ago
but that's another story), and I expect in all likelihood it will do -
it's just that there's the occasional hint that the TOCs are still
quibbling over some of the details.

On Sep 10, 7:17*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 04:07:55 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

On Sep 10, 10:51*am, wrote:

[snip]

Boris potentially proving yet again that it is actually possibly to make
Ken Livingstone seem like a forward thinking intellectual in retrospect.

Oh I can see the political risks but I don't think that it is
invincible. There are plenty of people who think kids should pay, that
they should walk to school and not use buses, that all kids are....

snip

If free travel for teenagers (or other children) were so clearly a "good
thing" I would expect it to be common in other large cities, in the UK
and elsewhere. Is it?

I have made no study of the question but happen to have noticed in
recent years that there is not free bus travel for unaccompanied
children in New York or Paris.

Anyone know the position in other cities for children and teens? Or was
it that Ken was the only one marching in step?

--
OR