Boltar wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote in message ...

I don't think anyone is claiming that that's the idea. The idea is to
provide an ability to perform orbital journeys - so of course they're
not looking at Croydon to the City via Whitechapel! Croydon to Canary
Wharf or Stratford via Canada Water on the other hand is much better and
cheaper than changing at London Bridge, and reduces pressure on central
area termini. In fact for many journeys it will be possible to avoid
Zone 1 - which makes it cheaper for the passenger and stops journeys
unnecessarily going through Zone 1.


But how many people will want to do that? Yes ok you'll get a few but
enough to justify the money spent? I doubt it. Far cheaper I would have
thought would have simply been to make the current ELL more usable by having
through trains from the main met line so making the ELL far more useful to the
people in the new cross area that a line to finsbury park will ever be (yes
I know there are issues with St Marys Curve but its hardly a show stopper).

I suspect the real reason LU is happy to divest itself of the ELL is cost
cutting. I very much doubt the line makes anything close to a profit at the
moment given how much it costs to maintain the tunnels and getting shot of it
will make the books look much rosier. Call me a cynic if you will....

B2003

I have to disagree. The southern extension opens up large populations in
South London to journey opportunities to East London and vice versa.
Let's say you live in Crystal Palace. Getting to the City is no problem
with direct trains to Cannon St, and ditto with the West End and Charing
Cross. However, to get to Docklands (an area with a boom in employment),
you have to travel to London Bridge and change on to the Jubilee Line.
That's a waste of (extremely limited) capacity at London Bridge. Not
only that, if you travel by ELL instead, your annual season ticket will
cost you £664 instead of £1136! I'd say that's the kind of difference
that will make people seriously consider even longer journeys using the
new ELL.

I don't see how through trains to the ELL make life that much easier for
New Cross residents, compared to the benefits obtained by extending
services to large populations in North and South London. New Cross
residents already have a direct service to the City and West End. As for
the further reaches of the Met, it might be quicker to change at Canada
Water or London Bridge onto the Jubilee line rather than crawl through
the northern Circle.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7

Dave Arquati wrote in message ...),
only that, if you travel by ELL instead, your annual season ticket will
cost you £664 instead of £1136! I'd say that's the kind of difference
that will make people seriously consider even longer journeys using the
new ELL.

I don't follow. If you don't go into zone 1 then yes your journey would be
cheaper but people in those areas have that option anyway if they want to
go somewhere on the ELL route , they just change at New Cross.

I don't see how through trains to the ELL make life that much easier for
New Cross residents, compared to the benefits obtained by extending
services to large populations in North and South London. New Cross

Ah , but the service isn't being extended. Its being withdrawn. What is
actually going to happen is that some TOC services will now be diverted
down the old ELL route instead of carrying on into the city. All this stuff
about extending the ELL is BS , its simply becoming the rail equivalent of a
bypass.

B2003

jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com wrote the following in:


Robin May writes:

Dave Arquati wrote the following in:


Is there any plan to increase train frequencies on the NLL? It's
true that it doesn't have all that many passengers, but I think
that's partly because you can't just turn up and go.

And partly that there are very few useful interchanges.

There are actually a few that are fairly good. Stratford has Central
line, DLR, Jubilee, National Rail and buses. West Ham has Jubilee,
District and H&C and c2c (National Rail). Canning Town has DLR, Jubilee
and buses. There's Custom House for DLR and Excel. There's also
Highbury and Islington for Victoria and National Rail. Those are just
the ones nearest and most useful to me, but there are others.

Camden Road comes to mind as a station that although not an interchange
could relieve pressure from Camden Town station for people wanting to
get to Camden lock. I don't think that many people know about it
though.

The problem with the NLL is that it's poorly publicised, extremely
grotty, very infrequent and not very reliable. If they were to improve
the service I really think it would become much more heavily used.

--
message by Robin May, but you can call me Mr Smith.
Hello. I'm one of those "roaring fascists of the left wing".

Then and than are different words!

Boltar wrote:

Dave Arquati wrote in message ...),

only that, if you travel by ELL instead, your annual season ticket will
cost you £664 instead of £1136! I'd say that's the kind of difference
that will make people seriously consider even longer journeys using the
new ELL.


I don't follow. If you don't go into zone 1 then yes your journey would be
cheaper but people in those areas have that option anyway if they want to
go somewhere on the ELL route , they just change at New Cross.

With a significant disadvantage in waiting times. There are currently
2tph from all stations south of Sydenham on those branches to NXG.
Combined with a theoretical 4tph frequency from NXG, possible waiting
times vary up to 43 minutes, with an average of 22.5 minutes. A direct
ELL service guarantees no wait at NXG, and frequency to the termini will
be 4tph. There will be 8tph from Sydenham and points north to NXG.
(Currently 6tph).

Clapham Junction and all stations on that branch have no service to any
ELL station. Actually the SLL stations don't currently have a direct
service to Clapham Junction anyway - more new journey opportunities.


I don't see how through trains to the ELL make life that much easier for
New Cross residents, compared to the benefits obtained by extending
services to large populations in North and South London. New Cross


Ah , but the service isn't being extended. Its being withdrawn. What is
actually going to happen is that some TOC services will now be diverted
down the old ELL route instead of carrying on into the city. All this stuff
about extending the ELL is BS , its simply becoming the rail equivalent of a
bypass.

B2003

I can't find any document stating that existing services will be
diverted. The only problem I can see is accomodating 14tph between NXG
and Sydenham on the local lines - so yes, there may be some substitution
there. But no-one appears to have mentioned it yet.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7

Dave Arquati wrote in message ...

I can't find any document stating that existing services will be
diverted. The only problem I can see is accomodating 14tph between NXG
and Sydenham on the local lines - so yes, there may be some substitution
there. But no-one appears to have mentioned it yet.

What is the plan for getting trains off of the up slow and onto the
ELL at NXG? Unless some sort of grade separated junction is plannned,
this movement will foul both fast lines; it will also require new
crossovers, since at present, the last opportunity to cross from the
up side to the down side of the line is just south of Norwood
Junction.

(William E. Aitken) wrote in message . com...
Dave Arquati wrote in message ...

I can't find any document stating that existing services will be
diverted. The only problem I can see is accomodating 14tph between NXG
and Sydenham on the local lines - so yes, there may be some substitution
there. But no-one appears to have mentioned it yet.

What is the plan for getting trains off of the up slow and onto the
ELL at NXG? Unless some sort of grade separated junction is plannned,
this movement will foul both fast lines; it will also require new
crossovers, since at present, the last opportunity to cross from the
up side to the down side of the line is just south of Norwood
Junction.

I don't know, although there's space enough for a diveunder

wrote in message
m...
(William E. Aitken) wrote in message
. com...

What is the plan for getting trains off of the
up slow and onto the ELL at NXG?

I don't know, although there's space enough for a diveunder

A flyover north of NXG is the plan. I can't remember if a diveunder would
suit the topography better, but construction of a flyover requires much less
possession of the mainline, which was a major issue in the eyes of the
project team.

There are quite a few details at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...#ELLExtensions

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

In article , William E.
Aitken writes
What is the plan for getting trains off of the up slow and onto the
ELL at NXG?

Brand new flyover.

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

Robin May wrote in message
. 1.4...

And partly that there are very few useful interchanges.

There are actually a few that are fairly good. Stratford has Central
line, DLR, Jubilee, National Rail and buses. West Ham has Jubilee,
District and H&C and c2c (National Rail). Canning Town has DLR, Jubilee
and buses. There's Custom House for DLR and Excel. There's also
Highbury and Islington for Victoria and National Rail. Those are just
the ones nearest and most useful to me, but there are others.

West Hampstead is crying out for development into a decent interchange: NLL,
Jubilee Line, Met, Chiltern, Thameslink. Anyone know what the latest
progress is with this?

ANgus

Angus Bryant wrote:
Robin May wrote in message
. 1.4...

And partly that there are very few useful interchanges.

There are actually a few that are fairly good. Stratford has Central
line, DLR, Jubilee, National Rail and buses. West Ham has Jubilee,
District and H&C and c2c (National Rail). Canning Town has DLR, Jubilee
and buses. There's Custom House for DLR and Excel. There's also
Highbury and Islington for Victoria and National Rail. Those are just
the ones nearest and most useful to me, but there are others.


West Hampstead is crying out for development into a decent interchange: NLL,
Jubilee Line, Met, Chiltern, Thameslink. Anyone know what the latest
progress is with this?

ANgus

Chiltern Railways are planning a new development connecting the three
stations, with Chiltern platforms built at the Met station and
redevelopment of West End Lane.

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/pa...roduction.html

The page has diagrams of the plans and contact information. The project
seems to be at a very early planning stage.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7