On Apr 9, 8:03*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:39:49 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"TheOneKEA" wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4502772159/

Does anyone know why this gateline was finally removed?

As an interchange gateline, it was presumably thought unnecessary following
PAYG extension (although it may just be coincidence). *It was pretty much
unique, as there are plenty of other stations where you can get into the
underground directly from other NR services, and the same requirement was
not applied to Central, DLR and LO at Stratford.

I think Paul Corfield has explained in the past that there was originally
thought to be too great a revenue risk at Stratford - that view must have
been challenged within LU I guess - and of course the maximum cash fare now
covers the costs if you touch out elsewhere on the Jubilee without touching
in.

Not quite - there was simply a policy decision to gate off the Jubilee
Line as far as possible. The only place it could really be done was
Stratford. *It wasn't exactly feasible to put gates on all the
connecting corridors between lines at Waterloo or London Bridge!

West Ham might have been do-able though, in the bridge passageway - it
might have also had to take in the NLL platforms (as well) though.


It was first switched off last November or December sometime though, there
were posts here about it if you search back.

I actually think this is all to do with Oyster on National Rail. *The
need to have so many Oyster OSIs in order to calculate the proper
through fare on the correct tariff and time band is probably the thing
that caused the concept of an interchange gateline to be abandoned. The
additional intermediate validation meant you could have two exits in a
row or two entries in a row. *Oyster PAYG works on "in then out" to
determine correct charging. *My guess is that a patch was possible when
PAYG was TfL only but once you expanded it wider then the patch became
unworkable and a system redesign for one location was not financially
justifiable. * The timing of going to "open mode" late last year is
almost certainly related to the downloading of revised software for PAYG
on National Rail.

The above is my speculation - I have no inside information.

I was in Stratford last September and saw something quite bizarre - a
couple of the Jubbly gates (in each direction) had standalone
validators fitted next to them and these featured pink (interchange)
pads, so it almost seemed as if some pax were going to be expected to
validate twice to get through the gates. This kinda blew my mind! I
did take a couple of very bad photos, but the Jubilee was closed that
weekend so I never saw if this arrangement was ever actually used. I'd
intended to post here about it, but things happened and I wasn't on
utl for a while thereafter, so I never got round to it. I'll try and
find said photos (which is something I'm sure I've said beforehand
though!). When I was next passing through Stratford in December (I
think), I took a look and found the gates locked open (with Oyster
pads inactive/ turned off), and the four or so standalone readers
active with yellow pads - this remained the situation a week or so
ago.

I'm wondering if the extra standalone validators were some far out
kludge that someone had devised to supposedly sort out some
horrifically complicated issue connected with the PAYG expansion - if
so, thankfully it got vetoed at some point (because it would have been
too confusing for words!). But these extra standalone readers were
definitely new installations as of sometime late summer '09, so
whatever it was had got far enough along the line to leave the drawing
board and assume a physical manifestation in the real world.

Paul Corfield wrote:

Having had to try to find a validator at Stratford to record an entry
on my (priv) PAYG card while trying to use the NXEA service to T Hale
I ended up walking for nearly 8 minutes to try to find one. There
are non on the Lea Valley platforms or on the corridors leading to
them. This strikes me as an omission. When I found one on the central
line platforms I ended just getting on the central line instead! I
imagine most people who have given up 7 minutes before I did. The
NXEA staff had no idea what I was talking about when I asked where
the nearest validator was.

You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off at London Bridge as soon as PAYG went live
on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as 'London
Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from outside
the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but to exit
using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really the current
situation - and is it reasonable?

My own experience is of SWT stations such as Richmond or Wimbledon having
validators on the paid side specifically to start/finish PAYG having arrived
by a mainline service, but I must admit I haven't been to either recently.
What would be worrying is if someone has decided that all interchange
between PAYG and NR has to be done at the outer boundary, eg Zone 6
(ignoring the extended areas in the NW etc for the moment)...

Paul S

On Apr 9, 10:18*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
Having had to try to find a validator at Stratford to record an entry
on my (priv) PAYG card while trying to use the NXEA service to T Hale
I ended up walking for nearly 8 minutes to try to find one. *There
are non on the Lea Valley platforms or on the corridors leading to
them. This strikes me as an omission. When I found one on the central
line platforms I ended just getting on the central line instead! *I
imagine most people who have given up 7 minutes before I did. *The
NXEA staff had no idea what I was talking about when I asked where
the nearest validator was.

You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off at London Bridge as soon as PAYG went live
on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as 'London
Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from outside
the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but to exit
using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really the current
situation - and is it reasonable?

I will endeavour to swing by the through platforms at London Bridge
soon and take a look.

I suppose there might be potential worries about the possibility for
misuse/abuse of the system when it comes to interchange validators.

(Though if they've come from Portsmouth and have changed Waterloo/
Waterloo East to get to London Bridge, then they might as well touch
in when entering Waterloo East!)


My own experience is of SWT stations such as Richmond or Wimbledon having
validators on the paid side specifically to start/finish PAYG having arrived
by a mainline service, but I must admit I haven't been to either recently..
What would be worrying is if someone has decided that all interchange
between PAYG and NR has to be done at the outer boundary, eg Zone 6
(ignoring the extended areas in the NW etc for the moment)...

That doesn't really follow. If someone had a ticket for London
Terminals, then that (London Bridge, Charing X etc) is where their
ticket is valid to. The issue is that they might then need to exit and
re-enter the station if they wanted to use Oyster PAYG for onward rail
travel in London (e.g. to Forest Hill). Depending on what their travel
plans are, there might be better off - or at least not any worse off
(or possibly not much worse off) if they buy an outboundary Day
Travelcard from say Tunbridge Wells or wherever (though definitely not
so if it's just the single trip).

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington (post footie, so the H&I gates
were in the open position to handle the crowds, and it was when the
NLL was still running and hence the NLL platforms accessible). I think
I then went and got on the Vic line - anyhow, there was no unresolved
journey or anything like that. So, going by this the pink validators
at West Brompton can be used to start a PAYG journey at least. Whether
they can end a journey I can't say - I suspect they can, but I haven't
tested that yet. Of course, just to be clear the official TfL guidance
is that pink validators should *not* be used to start or end a journey
- so don't anyone get in trouble by following me!

On 10 Apr, 00:25, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 9, 10:18*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:





Paul Corfield wrote:
Having had to try to find a validator at Stratford to record an entry
on my (priv) PAYG card while trying to use the NXEA service to T Hale
I ended up walking for nearly 8 minutes to try to find one. *There
are non on the Lea Valley platforms or on the corridors leading to
them. This strikes me as an omission. When I found one on the central
line platforms I ended just getting on the central line instead! *I
imagine most people who have given up 7 minutes before I did. *The
NXEA staff had no idea what I was talking about when I asked where
the nearest validator was.

You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off atLondonBridgeas soon as PAYG went live
on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as 'London
Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from outside
the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but to exit
using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really the current
situation - and is it reasonable?

I will endeavour to swing by the through platforms atLondonBridge
soon and take a look.


I looked at the ones at the end of platform 5/6 yesterday and they
were off.

On Apr 13, 11:49*am, MIG wrote:

On 10 Apr, 00:25, Mizter T wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:18*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
Having had to try to find a validator at Stratford to record an entry
on my (priv) PAYG card while trying to use the NXEA service to T Hale
I ended up walking for nearly 8 minutes to try to find one. *There
are non on the Lea Valley platforms or on the corridors leading to
them. This strikes me as an omission. When I found one on the central
line platforms I ended just getting on the central line instead! *I
imagine most people who have given up 7 minutes before I did. *The
NXEA staff had no idea what I was talking about when I asked where
the nearest validator was.

You've reminded me that I was reading a thread in a rail forum a couple of
days ago where someone was adamant that all the platform interchange
validators had been switched off at London Bridge as soon as PAYG went
live on NR.

The main thrust of that discussion was someone asking how he should
correctly use PAYG to commence a journey, having travelled as far as 'London
Terminals' with a paper ticket from somewhere like Portsmouth.

If they really have decided to switch off platform (or paid side)
'interchange validators' as a matter of policy, such passengers from outside
the zones wishing to change to PAYG seem to have little option but to exit
using their paper ticket and re-enter using PAYG. Is this really the current
situation - and is it reasonable?

I will endeavour to swing by the through platforms at London Bridge
soon and take a look.

I looked at the ones at the end of platform 5/6 yesterday and they
were off.

Ok. Well, see Paul Scott's separate comment on this issue.

Mizter T wrote:


By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington (post footie, so the H&I gates
were in the open position to handle the crowds, and it was when the
NLL was still running and hence the NLL platforms accessible). I think
I then went and got on the Vic line - anyhow, there was no unresolved
journey or anything like that. So, going by this the pink validators
at West Brompton can be used to start a PAYG journey at least. Whether
they can end a journey I can't say - I suspect they can, but I haven't
tested that yet. Of course, just to be clear the official TfL guidance
is that pink validators should *not* be used to start or end a journey
- so don't anyone get in trouble by following me!

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having thought it
through again. With extension to the NR routes they do actually become a
major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous suggestions about a 'soft
exit' cover the situation. Transfer from LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a
touch on an interchange validator and the system will treat that as your
exit - if you then don't touch out on exit at an ungated station further
down the line you've saved a few zones. So perhaps most of them will be
removed...

Paul S

On Apr 13, 12:58*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington [...snip]

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having thought it
through again. *With extension to the NR routes they do actually become a
major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous suggestions about a 'soft
exit' cover the situation. Transfer from LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a
touch on an interchange validator and the system will treat that as your
exit - if you then don't touch out on exit at an ungated station further
down the line *you've saved a few zones. *So perhaps most of them will be
removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

On 13 Apr, 13:06, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:58*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington [...snip]

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having thought it
through again. *With extension to the NR routes they do actually become a
major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous suggestions about a 'soft
exit' cover the situation. Transfer from LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a
touch on an interchange validator and the system will treat that as your
exit - if you then don't touch out on exit at an ungated station further
down the line *you've saved a few zones. *So perhaps most of them will be
removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

But is it really any different from any other situation of travelling
without a valid ticket? If you were determined to use that kind of
"loophole"*, you could still touch at the wide gate.

*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 05:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
MIG wrote:
*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

But its not travelling without a ticket. As long as you have a PAYG that
has sufficient funds to pay the not touching in penalty fare at wherever
you're going to then its valid.

B2003

MIG wrote:
On 13 Apr, 13:06, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:58 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

By the by, FWIW I successfully used a pink interchange validator to
start a journey at Highbury & Islington [...snip]

Going back to the original yellow 'interchange validators' having
thought it through again. With extension to the NR routes they do
actually become a major PAYG loophole don't they. Your previous
suggestions about a 'soft exit' cover the situation. Transfer from
LU onto SWT at Wimbledon with a touch on an interchange validator
and the system will treat that as your exit - if you then don't
touch out on exit at an ungated station further down the line
you've saved a few zones. So perhaps most of them will be removed...

Yeah, you see where I'm coming from on that point.

But is it really any different from any other situation of travelling
without a valid ticket? If you were determined to use that kind of
"loophole"*, you could still touch at the wide gate.

But a touch at a wide gate would be a proper touch out, not one of Mizter
T's 'soft exits'. If gripped further down the line the 'soft exit' shows up
but your account is still 'pending' a final touch out. IIRC from previous
discussions it will time out eventually?

*It's not really a loophole, because it's simply travelling without a
ticket and, if you are gripped, you pays the price.

No, I think unless they've changed something you are still 'touched in'.
Others might be able to explain better.

Paul S