On 22 Sep, 21:21, "Steve Dulieu" wrote:
"Roy Badami" wrote in message

...





[X-posting to uk.telecom.mobile]

On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all,
according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more
cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel.
__________
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23880176-boris-johnson....

Perhaps the Londoners here can set me straight on this.

Back when One2One first launched, it launched as a London-only network.
Its selling point, apart from being cheaper than Cellnet and Vodafone, was
that it claimed better coverage in the capital than the two national
networks.

I have strong recollections that part of that claim was that it worked on
the tube. *I remember quite specifically reading about this, down to (at
least some) discussion about the technology and the use of leaky feeders.

Am I mistaken? *Did One2One ever work on the tube, or was that just a plan
that never came to fruition? *And if it did work on the tube, what
happened to that infrastructure and why and when did it stop working?

Sadly you are mistaken, One2One never worked on the tube. The only customer
facing mobile telecoms that have ever worked on the LUL deep level tubes was
the old Rabbit network which had base stations on a lot of our platforms. I
remember my boss being stunned when I demonstrated my Motorola Silverlink
handset making calls to our depot at Arnos Grove from the platforms at Hyde
Park Corner and Wood Green stations on the Piccadilly line, back in the
early nineties before One2One were even online. Of course, that all got
knocked on the head when Hutchinson killed Rabbit to roll out Orange. Us
tube train drivers were some of the few people that though this was a
retrograde step.

But there are isolated places where they work now. In the deep
passageways at Hampstead, for example, and a lot of the tunnel towards
Bank on the DLR (but not Bank itself).

In article , (Roy
Badami) wrote:

On 22/09/10 11:55, Recliner wrote:

I don't think it was ever more than a plan. And I think originally it
was only going to work in stations, not the tunnels between them.

I'm almost certain there were at least plans to have it work in the
tunnels, because I remember the discussion of leaky feeders at the time.

Basically, you run a piece of coax along the tunnel (that's the feeder),
and at intervals the shielding is removed from a short length of coax,
which causes the feeder to leak RF (i.e. act as an antenna).

You need leaky feeder to cover the stations too, Roy. We provided PMR
cover to all the underground stations not already provided in a big
contact when I was still at Philips. I have a map somewhere with the
stations involved marked. Only those actually under the ground of course.
It was done after the King's Cross fire.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy Stilling" wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, "Recliner" wrote:
"Roy Badami" wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip
Have they got the emergency services' Tetra radios working in the Tube
yet? This was one of the recommendations post 7/7. Presumably it'd
be relatively easy to piggy-back civilian mobile traffic onto that
infrastructure if it has actually been completed.
Roy

If the emergency services had adopted GSM Pro instead of Tetra,
they could have added leaky feeder down the tube for all to use
at least 10 years ago.
Steve Terry

ISTR we had this argument somewhile ago and did we came to any
conclusion why it wasn't done?..

I mean sound engineering reasons?..
Tony Sayer


Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely
political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers
money to O2 Airwave.

It's commercial equivalent "Dolphin" has been an economic failure
and went bankrupt.

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote:
"Roy wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip
Have they got the emergency services' Tetra radios working in the Tube
yet? This was one of the recommendations post 7/7. Presumably it'd
be relatively easy to piggy-back civilian mobile traffic onto that
infrastructure if it has actually been completed.
Roy

If the emergency services had adopted GSM Pro instead of Tetra,
they could have added leaky feeder down the tube for all to use
at least 10 years ago.
Steve Terry

ISTR we had this argument somewhile ago and did we came to any
conclusion why it wasn't done?..

I mean sound engineering reasons?..
Tony Sayer


Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely
political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers
money to O2 Airwave.

Some fairly bald assertions, there. And wrong, too.

Firstly, perhaps you can point us at a capabilities specification for
GSM Pro and take us through how it meets the requirements that Tetra
meets to match the ERC specification.

Secondly, the TfL Tetra rollout doesn't involved Airwave, other than
requiring interworking.

Greetings.

In article , Recliner wrote:
Bad news -- it looks like mobile phones may work on the Tube after all,
according to that ever accurate source, the Evening Standard. So no more
cutting off of noisy phone callers as the train enters the tunnel.

I think the tunnel itself will be enough to make the noisy callers stop.
At least on the Central Line, when the train's in the tunnel, you need to
shout to be heard by, and strain to hear, a person sitting next to you. I
can't imagine it would be possible to carry on a telephone conversation
under those conditions, unless you are happy with the entirety of the
dialogue being, "What? What did you say? I can't hear you."

Regards,
Tristan

--
_
_V.-o Tristan Miller Space is limited
/ |`-' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- In a haiku, so it's hard
(7_\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ To finish what you

On Sep 23, 1:12*am, "Steve Terry" wrote:

Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely
political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers
money to O2 Airwave.

FYI: O2 sold Airwave to our friends at Macquarie in 2007:
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/networki...wave-39286784/

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Sep 23, 1:12 am, "Steve Terry" wrote:

Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely
political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers
money to O2 Airwave.

FYI: O2 sold Airwave to our friends at Macquarie in 2007:
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/networki...wave-39286784/


Which demonstrates the ludicrous amounts of public money wasted,
so much so that investment companies bought it.

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

"Rupert Moss-Eccardt" wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote:
"Roy wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip
Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely
political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers
money to O2 Airwave.

Some fairly bald assertions, there. And wrong, too.

Firstly, perhaps you can point us at a capabilities specification for GSM
Pro and take us through how it meets the requirements that Tetra meets to
match the ERC specification.

That would be the ERC spec that allows Tetra multiplexing at 17.6Hz that
the Police Association are litigating for health damage to their officers.
A problem that wouldn't exist with GSM
Trower report:
http://www.tetrawatch.net/papers/trower_report.pdf

Secondly, the TfL Tetra rollout doesn't involved Airwave, other than
requiring interworking.


Let me guess, you work for Airwave Tetra or TFL Tetra?
And Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

In 2000 whist visiting Sweden i spoke to police officers about
their new GSM Pro personal radios (at the time using waterproof
Ericsson R250s) and they were very satisfied with them.
(retail price for Ericsson R250s at the time was around £100 each)
http://www.gsmarena.com/ericsson_r250s_pro-119.php

Also if required additional encryption can be added to each phone.

We of course years later had to reinvent the wheel, at the cost of billions
to the public for the benefit of private companies, and to the detriment
of the public allowing them to share an improved GSM network.

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:56:56 +0100, "Steve Terry"
wrote:

About ten years ago Orange put leaky feeder in the tunnels
on the West coast line out of Euston at least as far as Northampton

Are they still present? If so that might explain why it is sometimes
possible to hold a signal all or most of the way through some of the
tunnels.
Neil

AFAIK, I can't see why Orange would remove them after spending
money on installing them.

I could hold a conversation from Euston to at least Northampton
on my Orange ED50, whilst others on other networks couldn't.

Steve Terry
--
"I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena
without having guns pointed at me.
I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it."
- Wilhelm Reich, November 1947

Steve Terry wrote:
"Rupert wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"tony wrote in message
...
In , Steve Terry
scribeth thus
"Roy wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep, 11:55, wrote:
"Roy wrote in message



On 22/09/10 11:24, Recliner wrote:
snip
Tetra has nothing to do with sound engineering reasons, it's entirely
political and a means of funnelling large quantities of taxpayers
money to O2 Airwave.

Some fairly bald assertions, there. And wrong, too.

Firstly, perhaps you can point us at a capabilities specification for GSM
Pro and take us through how it meets the requirements that Tetra meets to
match the ERC specification.

That would be the ERC spec that allows Tetra multiplexing at 17.6Hz that
the Police Association are litigating for health damage to their officers.
A problem that wouldn't exist with GSM
Trower report:
http://www.tetrawatch.net/papers/trower_report.pdf

Well done. How about the actual operational needs.
To pick a simple example. Tetra works on the TGV, GSM doesn't


Secondly, the TfL Tetra rollout doesn't involved Airwave, other than
requiring interworking.


Let me guess, you work for Airwave Tetra or TFL Tetra?
And Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Actually I don't and have never done so. However I have been involved
in training, supporting and managing 'blue light' and other emergency
organisations. So have an appreciation of what is needed and, indeed,
provided some input into the requirements spec some time ago for a
particular application.

In 2000 whist visiting Sweden i spoke to police officers about
their new GSM Pro personal radios (at the time using waterproof
Ericsson R250s) and they were very satisfied with them.
(retail price for Ericsson R250s at the time was around £100 each)
http://www.gsmarena.com/ericsson_r250s_pro-119.php

Yes, GSM Pro does provide PTT, but there are the well-known
shortcomings, as I hope you know.

Also if required additional encryption can be added to each phone.

We of course years later had to reinvent the wheel, at the cost of billions
to the public for the benefit of private companies, and to the detriment
of the public allowing them to share an improved GSM network.

But GSM isn't the right answer.
And _we_ didn't reinvent the wheel. Tetra is an ETSI standard.