I have a registered Oyster card with Senior Railcard loaded, so within zones
1-6, my off-peak daily travel should be capped at £5.00. An off-peak day
return from Upminster to Ockendon with railcard discount, which I could
presumably have bought at Fenchurch Street, costs £2.70 - I can't see
anything indicating that minimum fares or time restrictions would prevent
the use of such a ticket at the weekend.

On a recent Saturday, I made four journeys using Oyster PAYG. The first two
may have been linked by an OSI. I don't think I had any time-out issues. I
started the day with a balance of £14.06 and ended it with £4.66, so I was
charged a total of £9.40. Paper tickets would have cost £5.00 + £2.70, a
total of £7.70. Why was I charged £1.70 more? Is it anything to do with
the anytime day return (undiscounted) from Upminster to Ockendon being
£4.40?

Details, which I don't fully understand (even individually):
Victoria - Tower Hill: In £4.20, out -£2.40, so charge was £1.80.
Fenchurch Street - Ockendon: In £2.40, out -£0.45, so charge was £1.95.
Ockendon - Fenchurch Street: In £5.60, out -£1.70, so charge was £3.90.
Fenchurch Street - Liverpool Street on foot!
Liverpool Street - King's Cross St. Pancras: In £4.20, out -£2.45, so charge
was £1.75.

On 29/09/2010 19:20, John Salmon wrote:
I have a registered Oyster card with Senior Railcard loaded, so within
zones 1-6, my off-peak daily travel should be capped at £5.00. An
off-peak day return from Upminster to Ockendon with railcard discount,
which I could presumably have bought at Fenchurch Street, costs £2.70 -
I can't see anything indicating that minimum fares or time restrictions
would prevent the use of such a ticket at the weekend.

On a recent Saturday, I made four journeys using Oyster PAYG. The first
two may have been linked by an OSI. I don't think I had any time-out
issues. I started the day with a balance of £14.06 and ended it with
£4.66, so I was charged a total of £9.40. Paper tickets would have cost
£5.00 + £2.70, a total of £7.70. Why was I charged £1.70 more? Is it
anything to do with the anytime day return (undiscounted) from Upminster
to Ockendon being £4.40?

Details, which I don't fully understand (even individually):
Victoria - Tower Hill: In £4.20, out -£2.40, so charge was £1.80.
Fenchurch Street - Ockendon: In £2.40, out -£0.45, so charge was £1.95.

Tower Hill - Fenchurch Street is an OSI with a 40 minute time limit, so
that would've been treated as a through journey from Victoria to
Ockendon, which the TfL Fares Finder says should be charged at £5.70
with a Railcard.

Ockendon - Fenchurch Street: In £5.60, out -£1.70, so charge was £3.90.
Fenchurch Street - Liverpool Street on foot!
Liverpool Street - King's Cross St. Pancras: In £4.20, out -£2.45, so
charge was £1.75.

Fenchurch Street - Liverpool Street is another OSI, again with a 40
minute limit. And once again, this comes up with a £5.70 charge for the
through journey.

Looking at the TfL site, the daily cap for 1-9 + Grays with a Railcard
is £9.50, the same as for 1-9 + Watford Junction.

Having said that, the same page then goes onto say that an Oyster Single
for 1-9 + Grays is £3.75 Off-Peak with a Railcard!

Cheers,

Barry

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
On 29/09/2010 19:20, John Salmon wrote:
I have a registered Oyster card with Senior Railcard loaded, so within
zones 1-6, my off-peak daily travel should be capped at £5.00. An
off-peak day return from Upminster to Ockendon with railcard discount,
which I could presumably have bought at Fenchurch Street, costs £2.70 -
I can't see anything indicating that minimum fares or time restrictions
would prevent the use of such a ticket at the weekend.

On a recent Saturday, I made four journeys using Oyster PAYG. The first
two may have been linked by an OSI. I don't think I had any time-out
issues. I started the day with a balance of £14.06 and ended it with
£4.66, so I was charged a total of £9.40. Paper tickets would have cost
£5.00 + £2.70, a total of £7.70. Why was I charged £1.70 more? Is it
anything to do with the anytime day return (undiscounted) from Upminster
to Ockendon being £4.40?

Details, which I don't fully understand (even individually):
Victoria - Tower Hill: In £4.20, out -£2.40, so charge was £1.80.
Fenchurch Street - Ockendon: In £2.40, out -£0.45, so charge was £1.95.

Tower Hill - Fenchurch Street is an OSI with a 40 minute time limit, so
that would've been treated as a through journey from Victoria to Ockendon,
which the TfL Fares Finder says should be charged at £5.70 with a
Railcard.

Ockendon - Fenchurch Street: In £5.60, out -£1.70, so charge was £3.90.
Fenchurch Street - Liverpool Street on foot!
Liverpool Street - King's Cross St. Pancras: In £4.20, out -£2.45, so
charge was £1.75.

Fenchurch Street - Liverpool Street is another OSI, again with a 40 minute
limit. And once again, this comes up with a £5.70 charge for the through
journey.

Looking at the TfL site, the daily cap for 1-9 + Grays with a Railcard is
£9.50, the same as for 1-9 + Watford Junction.

Having said that, the same page then goes onto say that an Oyster Single
for 1-9 + Grays is £3.75 Off-Peak with a Railcard!

Thanks. Part of the problem here seems to be that the caps involving the c2c
stations within the Oyster area include zones 7, 8 and 9 even though they
are totally unrelated to c2c.

"John Salmon" wrote
I have a registered Oyster card with Senior Railcard loaded, so within
zones 1-6, my off-peak daily travel should be capped at £5.00. An
off-peak day return from Upminster to Ockendon with railcard discount,
which I could presumably have bought at Fenchurch Street, costs £2.70 - I
can't see anything indicating that minimum fares or time restrictions
would prevent the use of such a ticket at the weekend.

On a recent Saturday, I made four journeys using Oyster PAYG. The first
two may have been linked by an OSI. I don't think I had any time-out
issues. I started the day with a balance of £14.06 and ended it with
£4.66, so I was charged a total of £9.40. Paper tickets would have cost
£5.00 + £2.70, a total of £7.70. Why was I charged £1.70 more? Is it
anything to do with the anytime day return (undiscounted) from Upminster
to Ockendon being £4.40?

Details, which I don't fully understand (even individually):
Victoria - Tower Hill: In £4.20, out -£2.40, so charge was £1.80.
Fenchurch Street - Ockendon: In £2.40, out -£0.45, so charge was £1.95.
Ockendon - Fenchurch Street: In £5.60, out -£1.70, so charge was £3.90.
Fenchurch Street - Liverpool Street on foot!
Liverpool Street - King's Cross St. Pancras: In £4.20, out -£2.45, so
charge was £1.75.
I am somewhat disappointed to have received only one reply to this message,
so let me try something more general. Is it, or is it not, the case that
Oyster PAYG should always be the cheapest way to pay for a journey within
the area covered by Oyster PAYG? My impression is that Oyster has been
promoted in that way, but now I'm wondering whether that only applies to LO
and LU travel, i.e. excluding other 'National Rail' travel.

John Salmon wrote on 03 October 2010 23:41:41 ...

"John Salmon" wrote
I have a registered Oyster card with Senior Railcard loaded, so within
zones 1-6, my off-peak daily travel should be capped at £5.00. An
off-peak day return from Upminster to Ockendon with railcard discount,
which I could presumably have bought at Fenchurch Street, costs £2.70 - I
can't see anything indicating that minimum fares or time restrictions
would prevent the use of such a ticket at the weekend.

On a recent Saturday, I made four journeys using Oyster PAYG. The first
two may have been linked by an OSI. I don't think I had any time-out
issues. I started the day with a balance of £14.06 and ended it with
£4.66, so I was charged a total of £9.40. Paper tickets would have cost
£5.00 + £2.70, a total of £7.70. Why was I charged £1.70 more? Is it
anything to do with the anytime day return (undiscounted) from Upminster
to Ockendon being £4.40?

Details, which I don't fully understand (even individually):
Victoria - Tower Hill: In £4.20, out -£2.40, so charge was £1.80.
Fenchurch Street - Ockendon: In £2.40, out -£0.45, so charge was £1.95.
Ockendon - Fenchurch Street: In £5.60, out -£1.70, so charge was £3.90.
Fenchurch Street - Liverpool Street on foot!
Liverpool Street - King's Cross St. Pancras: In £4.20, out -£2.45, so
charge was £1.75.

I am somewhat disappointed to have received only one reply to this message,
so let me try something more general. Is it, or is it not, the case that
Oyster PAYG should always be the cheapest way to pay for a journey within
the area covered by Oyster PAYG? My impression is that Oyster has been
promoted in that way, but now I'm wondering whether that only applies to LO
and LU travel, i.e. excluding other 'National Rail' travel.

Yes, something like that. If you look at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx it says that "Using Oyster to
pay as you go is *usually* cheaper than paying cash. What you pay
depends on which line you're using." (My emphasis)

Also: "You pay National Rail Oyster single fares when you use Oyster on
other [non-TfL] lines." So cheap return fares aren't part of the
capping regime.

Incidentally, are the cash fares from Ockendon the same as those to
Ockendon? I note that you paid much more for your up journey than for
the down journey.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

I am somewhat disappointed to have received only one reply to this
message,

Perhaps no one could work out exactly what happened in your case.

On the outbound trip there is clearly an OSI and the end result is the
Senior Railcard discounted journey at £3.75 that Barry quoted, though I
didn't see where it was mentioned myself.

On the way back you were charged the Oyster PAYG off-peak single fare of
£3.90 from Ockendon to Fenchuch Street. Not sure why the £3.75 doesn't apply
in this direction but there you go.

It rather looks like an OSI wasn't applied and so your journey from
Liverpool Street to King's Cross was treated as a new single journey. The
fare would have been £1.80 but a Senior Railcard discount on the £14.20
off-peak price-cap gives £9.40 by my calculations and so it was capped to
£1.75.

The lack of an OSI hasn't actually changed the fare as it would have been
£5. 70 anyway which of course is the same as £3.90+£1.80.

So there are two issues he
1) Should there have been an OSI applied on your return journey?
2) Should the return journey have also been £3.75 like the outbound one?

Had it been £3.75 in both directions it would of course have totalled £7.50,
the same as a discounted 1-6 cap and a discounted Upminster-Ockendon return
(that National Rail site gives £2.50 as the cheapest discounted return
rather that the £2.70 you quoted).

so let me try something more general. Is it, or is it not, the case that
Oyster PAYG should always be the cheapest way to pay for a journey within
the area covered by Oyster PAYG? My impression is that Oyster has been
promoted in that way, but now I'm wondering whether that only applies to
LO and LU travel, i.e. excluding other 'National Rail' travel.

I certainly wouldn't use the word 'always' and I don't believe TfL do
either. I believe they acknowledge that there can sometimes be ways of using
paper tickets to save money given that Oyster PAYG doesn't have the concept
of a return ticket and doesn't discount single journeys, only caps.

Taking part of your example, without a railcard discount an off-peak single
from Upminster to Ockendon is £3.00 and a return is £3.80. Railcard
discounted the fares are £2.00 and £2.50. (Cheapest fares taken from the
National Rail site without actually checking for any limitations). The
Oyster PAYG is £1.90 each way according to TfL so it is cheapest for single
tickets, the same as the undiscounted paper ticket for a return, and more
expensive than a discounted return.

Now what would have happened if your Oyster PAYG journey was actually via
Upminster with touch-outs and touch-ins? Perhaps it would have been charged
at £5.00+£1.90+£1.90 = £8.80 compared to the £9.40 cap via Fenchurch Street.
An anomaly perhaps, but at the end of the day it isn't the same journey.

On Oct 3, 11:41*pm, "John Salmon" wrote:
[snip initial post]

I am somewhat disappointed to have received only one reply to this message,
so let me try something more general. *Is it, or is it not, the case that
Oyster PAYG should always be the cheapest way to pay for a journey within
the area covered by Oyster PAYG? *My impression is that Oyster has been
promoted in that way, but now I'm wondering whether that only applies to LO
and LU travel, i.e. excluding other 'National Rail' travel.

I'm interested by this John - I had some vague notion that things in
c2c PAYG-land (i.e. their four stations outwith zone 6 which accept
Oyster PAYG) might have been a bit different, but that was based on me
thinking that the fares lists on the TfL website didn't list PAYG caps
for Grays etc - I see that it does now, so either I was simply
mistaken when I looked at it earlier in the year or else these caps
were initially omitted from the website for whatever reason.

I'll try and work through your first post and attempt to fathom out
what may have happened but it'll have to wait for a little while as
things are a bit busy at the mo (bears of little brain such as myself
don't have a lot of excess mental capacity to chew through
complexities such as this on the side!).

Following up my own post...

On the outbound trip there is clearly an OSI and the end result is the
Senior Railcard discounted journey at £3.75 that Barry quoted, though I
didn't see where it was mentioned myself.

I've now found it, rather obviously under the 'railcard' tab of
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx.

On the way back you were charged the Oyster PAYG off-peak single fare of
£3.90 from Ockendon to Fenchuch Street. Not sure why the £3.75 doesn't
apply in this direction but there you go.

The railcard discounted fare for the appropriate National Rail only ticket
is only £2.60 so that is the figure I should be querying in this case.

It rather looks like an OSI wasn't applied and so your journey from
Liverpool Street to King's Cross was treated as a new single journey. The
fare would have been £1.80 but a Senior Railcard discount on the £14.20
off-peak price-cap gives £9.40 by my calculations and so it was capped to
£1.75.

The TfL site doesn't actually show an off-peak cap for Zones 1-9 + Grays in
the 'Adult' tab of the previously mentioned page, only a peak cap of £18.00.
I had assumed the off-peak cap must also exist and be the same as for Zones
1-9 + Watford which has the same peak cap. I then assumed a 34% discount on
that assumed off-peak cap of £14.20 and that gave £9.40 which is consistent
with the figure quoted for Watford on
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...ares/6769.aspx (Grays
not being mentioned) which is quite probably an old page that Google still
indexes on the site. However on the page mentioned previously the figure of
£9.50 quoted by Barry appears for both Watford and Grays. However a £9.40
cap being applied is certainly consistent with the Oyster history shown.

Just to add to the apparent inconsistency, the page
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx which covers Tube, DLR and London
Overground fares specifies Zones 1-9 + Watford and Zones 1-9 + Grays as both
having peak caps of £18.00 and off-peak caps of £14.50. It isn't clear to me
what a Grays fare is doing on that page at all.

So there are two issues he
1) Should there have been an OSI applied on your return journey?
2) Should the return journey have also been £3.75 like the outbound one?

So that should be rewritten as...

1) Should the railcard discounted fare of £2.60 have been applied for the
journey from Ockendon to Fenchurch St?
2) Should there have been an OSI applied, resulting in a railcard discounted
fare of £3.75 for the whole return journey?

G.

"Graham J" wrote
Following up my own post...

On the outbound trip there is clearly an OSI and the end result is the
Senior Railcard discounted journey at £3.75 that Barry quoted, though I
didn't see where it was mentioned myself.

I've now found it, rather obviously under the 'railcard' tab of
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx.

On the way back you were charged the Oyster PAYG off-peak single fare of
£3.90 from Ockendon to Fenchuch Street. Not sure why the £3.75 doesn't
apply in this direction but there you go.

The railcard discounted fare for the appropriate National Rail only ticket
is only £2.60 so that is the figure I should be querying in this case.

It rather looks like an OSI wasn't applied and so your journey from
Liverpool Street to King's Cross was treated as a new single journey.
The fare would have been £1.80 but a Senior Railcard discount on the
£14.20 off-peak price-cap gives £9.40 by my calculations and so it was
capped to £1.75.

The TfL site doesn't actually show an off-peak cap for Zones 1-9 + Grays
in the 'Adult' tab of the previously mentioned page, only a peak cap of
£18.00. I had assumed the off-peak cap must also exist and be the same as
for Zones 1-9 + Watford which has the same peak cap. I then assumed a 34%
discount on that assumed off-peak cap of £14.20 and that gave £9.40 which
is consistent with the figure quoted for Watford on
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...ares/6769.aspx (Grays
not being mentioned) which is quite probably an old page that Google still
indexes on the site. However on the page mentioned previously the figure
of £9.50 quoted by Barry appears for both Watford and Grays. However a
£9.40 cap being applied is certainly consistent with the Oyster history
shown.

Just to add to the apparent inconsistency, the page
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx which covers Tube, DLR and London
Overground fares specifies Zones 1-9 + Watford and Zones 1-9 + Grays as
both having peak caps of £18.00 and off-peak caps of £14.50. It isn't
clear to me what a Grays fare is doing on that page at all.

So there are two issues he
1) Should there have been an OSI applied on your return journey?
2) Should the return journey have also been £3.75 like the outbound one?

So that should be rewritten as...

1) Should the railcard discounted fare of £2.60 have been applied for the
journey from Ockendon to Fenchurch St?
2) Should there have been an OSI applied, resulting in a railcard
discounted fare of £3.75 for the whole return journey?

Thanks very much for your input. It helps me to decide how to challenge the
charging - which I intend to do as a matter of principle, even though the
amount of the apparent overcharge is small.

If it helps anyone else who is intending to respond (e.g. Mizter T - thanks
for your earlier message), here are all the touch-in and touch-out times for
that day as shown on my journey history:

Victoria LU entry 13:09
Tower Hill exit 13:26
Fenchurch Street NR entry 13:27
Ockendon exit 14:19
Ockendon entry 14:57
Fenchurch Street NR exit 15:32
Liverpool Street LU entry 15:45
King's Cross Picc Vic exit 15:56

1) Should there have been an OSI applied on your return journey?

[...snip...]

Fenchurch Street NR exit 15:32
Liverpool Street LU entry 15:45

I deliberately phrased my points as queries because of my incomplete
knowledge of the subject and I think I may well have been wise to do so as I
now believe the answer to point 1) may well actually be NO. Looking at
http://www.dragondark.co.uk/osi/osi.pdf, which gives a recent list of out of
station interchanges (and is consistent with other lists), there is an OSI
shown between Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street NR, but there is NOT one
between Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street LU. It seems if you are
changing to the underground from Fenchurch Street you are actually expected
to use Aldgate, Bank, Monument or Tower Hill.

So I think you were actually charged correctly for that leg of your journey,
with just the inconsistency (in your favour) over a £9.40 cap seemingly
having been applied when the fare tables online suggest it should have been
£9.50.

So that seems to only leave the question of whether your journey from
Ockendon to Fenchurch Street should have had the railcard discount applied
to it. I can't immediately think why the answer would be no.

G.