Paul Corfield wrote

Presumably the research didn't include those I see on almost every
bus
journey who signal the bus too late (either with a V sign or an
angry
fist) as it sails straight pass compulsory bus stops where people
obviously *were* waiting to board.

In such situations the driver is not conforming to the policy.

Last month I had a 111 fail to stop in such a marked manner that the
driver of the following 515 (non-TFL), which did stop on being hailed,
asked if I disliked red buses -

--
Mike D

In message , at 00:47:24 on
Wed, 9 Mar 2011, Richard remarked:
London buses have this too - it's now incorporated into the iBus information
display.

People seem to think that it's an invitation to press the button
again...

Us Nottingham folk seem to be able to work out that if the sign is lit
up there's no need to ring again.

When getting on the bus, it's not so clear-cut. A Berlin bus driver
once got quite irate at my wave. Nobody else minds. Perhaps a
theatrical extraction of change or ticket, or lunge towards the bus
stop pole is a compromise. Eye contact with the driver can work as
well, and ensure a suitable position for the front doors, where that's
the done thing.

Again, here in Nottingham what people do is stick out an arm, and the
bus puts on its left indicator - if it hasn't done so already as a
result of dropping someone off.

I wonder whether Roland's experience of Geneva was more about
timetable adherence than any rules about stopping, at least that's
what it seemed like to me when I was in Zurich.

In off-peak periods there are a couple of places that my Nottingham
buses are sometimes clearly waiting for the timetable to catch up, but
the Geneva ones treat each bus stop the way you are supposed to approach
a "Stop" road junction. ie come to a halt for a split second, then
immediately move off (assuming its safe). Avoiding getting ahead of the
timetable can be done by driving slower between stops. The roads there
are clear enough (or there are bus priority measures) so there's little
conflicting traffic to worry about most of the time.
--
Roland Perry

In message 01cbdde1$8fc4a380$LocalHost@default, at 02:22:21 on Wed, 9
Mar 2011, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:

One reason to ring the bell on country bus routes is that standing up
or moving before the bus actually stops can be unsafe, especially if
one is not very secure on ones feet.

So expecting the driver to notice only works when the passenger feels
it safe to move when the bus isn't stationary.

That depends how far away the bells are. If this is an issue, then the
buses here have about half the seats within reach of the bell without
getting up.
--
Roland Perry

This is the most recent response I have received (albeit almost two
years ago now) on this topic ....

"Thank you for contacting London Buses, regarding a route 345 bus
driver, who failed to stop for you at 0822 hours at the end of
Coldharbour Lane, heading towards Camberwell on 17 March 2009.

"All drivers trained by London General undergo a thorough and
intensive training programme, which includes a strong emphasis on
customer care. Carrying passengers to their destinations is, after
all, the very nature of the service that we provide and we expect our
staff to do so in a safe, courteous and caring manner.

"During training, drivers are instructed to stop at all white
compulsory stops and to be fully alert and aware of passengers wishing
to board at red request stops. I am sorry you have had reason to
report the contrary on this occasion."

The implication appears to be that the distinction between compulsory
and request stops remains, despite its absence from any TfL
publicity. But there is clearly no enthusiasm from TfL to enforce
it. Writing letters of complaint elicit a polite reply, like the one
above, followed by an assurance that action has been taken, but
nothing ever changes.

peter

Presumably the research didn't include those I see on almost every bus
journey who signal the bus too late (either with a V sign or an angry
fist) as it sails straight pass compulsory bus stops where people
obviously *were* waiting to board.

In such situations the driver is not conforming to the policy.

It is common for the 410 not to stop at East Croydon northbound in the
evening peak (and to a lesser extent at other locations at other times of
day) despite there being waiting passengers, presumably because the driver
believes the bus is full (although the waiting passengers can often see that
actually it isn't, it is just crowded at the front). Once wonders what the
policy is in that instance.

I always hail buses and ring the bell if no one else has. However this is
because I've long since lost confidence that drivers would actually stop at
compulsory stops otherwise. I know I am by no means alone in doing this.
It seems to me that to some extent TfL have changed the regulations to match
the behaviour of passengers who were responding to the failure to adhere to
the old regulations.

I think it is actually perfectly reasonable to have just one type of bus
stop and to request passengers indicate to the driver that they wish to
board or alight. It would be a courtesy to their passengers to advise them
what they policy now is, especially as those who are most familiar with the
concept of compulsory and request stops are likely to have been using the
bus services for the longest time.

On Mar 9, 10:53*pm, "Graham J" wrote:
Presumably the research didn't include those I see on almost every bus
journey who signal the bus too late (either with a V sign or an angry
fist) as it sails straight pass compulsory bus stops where people
obviously *were* waiting to board.
In such situations the driver is not conforming to the policy.

It is common for the 410 not to stop at East Croydon northbound in the
evening peak (and to a lesser extent at other locations at other times of
day) despite there being waiting passengers, presumably because the driver
believes the bus is full (although the waiting passengers can often see that
actually it isn't, it is just crowded at the front). *Once wonders what the
policy is in that instance.

I always hail buses and ring the bell if no one else has. *However this is
because I've long since lost confidence that drivers would actually stop at
compulsory stops otherwise. *I know I am by no means alone in doing this.
It seems to me that to some extent TfL have changed the regulations to match
the behaviour of passengers who were responding to the failure to adhere to
the old regulations.

I think it is actually perfectly reasonable to have just one type of bus
stop and to request passengers indicate to the driver that they wish to
board or alight. *It would be a courtesy to their passengers to advise them
what they policy now is, especially as those who are most familiar with the
concept of compulsory and request stops are likely to have been using the
bus services for the longest time.

There seems to be a common misconception here that all bus drivers
regard passengers as something other than a mere inconvenience in
their plight to get from starting point to destination as quickly as
possible, and with as few interruptions (i.e. passengers) as they
possibly can. Inspectors are frequently of the same mindset: how else
would they explain turning short two packed Northbound 295 buses at
Fulham Brodway (Jerdan Place) on Tuesday morning at 8.30a.m., churning
the passengers out onto a dangerously small pavement that was being
dug up (the bus stop itself was actually fenced off for pavement works
around it).

The new T.F.L. regime quoted at the beginning of this threat is truly
incredible, and shows that they regard passengers as mere cattle, like
so many drivers.

Why not just have a SIMPLE system: one design of bus stop, with
"REQUEST" written on it, and make the SIMPLE rule that anyone wishing
to board or alight the must hail the bus as it approaches or ring the
bell, respectively? The "new" regime of "COMPULSORY" bus stops that
are not compulsory is a recipe for confusion to all concerned! Only
idiotically muddled thinking would suggest otherwise! And as for not
actually publicising the change in regulations - that truly beggars
belief, even for an organisation with such poor concept of "service"
as T.F.L.!

M.M.

In article ,
Graham J wrote:

I think it is actually perfectly reasonable to have just one type of bus
stop and to request passengers indicate to the driver that they wish to
board or alight.

That's how it's always worked outside London AFAIK (although the
indication was often subtle in the case of boarding).

As of a couple of years ago I do now usually put my arm out to hail a
bus rather than just subtly looking like I want to board -- formerly
(where I grew up in Greater Manchester and more recently in Cambridge)
I perhaps took a half-step towards the curb and maybe made eye contact
with the driver, and that was a normal way of indicating you wanted to
board. (I'd also take a step *back* to indicate I didn't want to
board, if it was the wrong bus).

But as a result of being told off for signalling late in Cambridge a
few years ago by an Eastern European bus driver who'd clearly failed
to spot that I wanted to board until I stuck my arm out as a last
resort, I reevaluated this. I know the latter is the normal way of
hailing a bus in at least some parts of continental Europe so I can
understand why some drivers from elsewhere in the EU may expect it,
and it just seems simpler to go along with it since it's pretty
unambiguous.

In case I needed one, I got a reminder that you need to explicitly
signal here in London, too, only a couple of weeks ago when a bus
sailed past despite the fact that I thought I was looking like I
wanted to board. I'm new to London, though - what was the traditional
practice at request stops? Hold your arm out, or a more subtle
indication?

-roy

On 11/03/2011 00:00, Roy Badami wrote:

But as a result of being told off for signalling late in Cambridge a
few years ago by an Eastern European bus driver who'd clearly failed
to spot that I wanted to board until I stuck my arm out as a last
resort, I reevaluated this. I know the latter is the normal way of
hailing a bus in at least some parts of continental Europe so I can
understand why some drivers from elsewhere in the EU may expect it,
and it just seems simpler to go along with it since it's pretty
unambiguous.

Last year I had a bus driver in Germany get very rude in two languages
because I had put my arm out. But with a bus every 30 min, at night in
the rain, I didn't fancy the risk of it not stopping. admittedly she
then had a go at another passsenger for something else, so it might have
been just her!

When I was little in Hull, ringing the bell to get off was considered
what would now be called anti-social behaviour. You were supposed to go
and stand by the door waiting to get off (no middle exit).

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Arthur Figgis wrote on 11 March 2011
07:00:58 ...
On 11/03/2011 00:00, Roy Badami wrote:

But as a result of being told off for signalling late in Cambridge a
few years ago by an Eastern European bus driver who'd clearly failed
to spot that I wanted to board until I stuck my arm out as a last
resort, I reevaluated this. I know the latter is the normal way of
hailing a bus in at least some parts of continental Europe so I can
understand why some drivers from elsewhere in the EU may expect it,
and it just seems simpler to go along with it since it's pretty
unambiguous.

Last year I had a bus driver in Germany get very rude in two languages
because I had put my arm out. But with a bus every 30 min, at night in
the rain, I didn't fancy the risk of it not stopping. admittedly she
then had a go at another passsenger for something else, so it might have
been just her!

When I was little in Hull, ringing the bell to get off was considered
what would now be called anti-social behaviour. You were supposed to go
and stand by the door waiting to get off (no middle exit).

So, what was the bell for?
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On 9 Mar, 08:42, peter wrote:
This is the most recent response I have received (albeit almost two
years ago now) on this topic ....

"Thank you for contacting London Buses, regarding a route 345 bus
driver, who failed to stop for you at 0822 hours at the end of
Coldharbour Lane, heading towards Camberwell on 17 March 2009.

"All drivers trained by London General undergo a thorough and
intensive training programme, which includes a strong emphasis on
customer care. Carrying passengers to their destinations is, after
all, the very nature of the service that we provide and we expect our
staff to do so in a safe, courteous and caring manner.

"During training, drivers are instructed to stop at all white
compulsory stops and to be fully alert and aware of passengers wishing
to board at red request stops. I am sorry you have had reason to
report the contrary on this occasion."

The implication appears to be that the distinction between compulsory
and request stops remains, despite its absence from any TfL
publicity. * But there is clearly no enthusiasm from TfL to enforce
it. *Writing letters of complaint elicit a polite reply, like the one
above, followed by an assurance that action has been taken, but
nothing ever changes.

peter



That is the same reply I've had in the past and no doubt the one I'll
get when this complaint eventually gets dealt with, but as you say
nothing ever changes.

In my experience the problem is far worse in Central London than in
the suburbs although I don't know why that should be.

Surely the rule should be that drivers should stop at all stops where
passengers are waiting, and if in doubt stop anyway, and passengers
should be required to press the bell for ALL stops. So nobody at or
near the stop and no bell and the driver needn't stop.