On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:35:14 +0000, Bob Adams
wrote:

In message , Ben and Michiyo
writes
You should only swipe once for going in and once going out. If you can not
make sure you are only charged for one journey and if not ring the
oystercard helpline to be refunded.

Will somebody please explain to me how an Oyster card is an improvement
over a travel card _from a regular commuter passengers point of view_ ?

A travel card just works. No phoning, no unnecessary swiping, no
overcharging, no stress. Is an Oyster truly an improvement for anybody
else other than LUL? If not, why is everybody playing along with this
charade?

Err as one of the people who originally worked on this project I really
don't see what the problem is. All of the complications that are being
questioned via this newsgroup are the result of slightly different ways
of doing things and unfamiliarity with the system. There also seem to be
some issues over the operation of the support functions like the phone
lines and website but that is not the fault of the Oyster card per se.

A Travelcard on an Oyster card will "just" work too. You just touch the
target and off you go. No fumble factor, no jammed tickets, no risk of
someone else grabbing your ticket at the gate. If you lose your card or
someone steals it then it can be stopped - a big improvement if you've
forked out a lot of cash.

Pre-Pay is a new product and has not (IMO) settled down. The launch was
always going to be phased and I think you will continue to see questions
and issues being raised for a number of months until people gain
confidence in using it, staff awareness and training improves and the
newer features are introduced. It will take time to settle down.

Yes there are benefits for TfL from Oyster but a lot of those are about
providing a better service and more tailored fares products for
passengers. These should encourage usage of public transport -
especially off peak - and isn't this something that is considered to be
"a good thing"?

I have a staff Oyster card and I love it. When I go to Hong Kong I buy
an Octopus Card and love that too - it opened up the use of the Hong
Kong bus network (and therefore Hong Kong) for me because the old cash
only, no change system was very tourist unfriendly.

Try it - you *might* like it.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In article ,
Paul Corfield wrote:

Pre-Pay is a new product and has not (IMO) settled down. The launch
was always going to be phased and I think you will continue to see
questions and issues being raised for a number of months until people
gain confidence in using it, staff awareness and training improves
and the newer features are introduced. It will take time to settle
down.


Try it - you *might* like it.

From the postings here it seems that some of the consequences of this
settling down period are increased hassle and expense for some users
even to the point of being refused travel. This is very off-putting.
Does TfL have a suitably responsive system for learning from these
issues that users can also gain some recompense from?

A trial or development period should not be at the expense of the
paying user.

John Haines

In article , (John
Haines) wrote:

In article ,
Paul Corfield wrote:

Pre-Pay is a new product and has not (IMO) settled down. The launch
was always going to be phased and I think you will continue to see
questions and issues being raised for a number of months until people
gain confidence in using it, staff awareness and training improves
and the newer features are introduced. It will take time to settle
down.


Try it - you *might* like it.

From the postings here it seems that some of the consequences of this
settling down period are increased hassle and expense for some users
even to the point of being refused travel. This is very off-putting.
Does TfL have a suitably responsive system for learning from these
issues that users can also gain some recompense from?

A trial or development period should not be at the expense of the
paying user.

John Haines


I don't have all the posts, but from the original post in the Fare Dodging
Consequences topic, it seems that there was nothing wrong with the system
the the poster's case. He was fraudulently travelling in zone one when he
only had a zone two card and the system correctly identified this and
charged the person accordingly. In which case the system was working
correctly.

If a person fraudulently travelled in the same way with only a zone two
ticket, as the original poster said that he did regularly, then that
person would be fined if caught by a revenue inspector. Perhaps the Oyster
system can be amended to detect fraud and automatically deduct a fine as
well, with a court referral after X times

Too many people deliberately avoid paying their fare / correct fare
(and seem proud of the fact that they've fiddled something) then complain
when they get caught.

Roger

In article ,
wrote:
In article ,
(John Haines) wrote:

In article , Paul
Corfield wrote:

Pre-Pay is a new product and has not (IMO) settled down. The
launch was always going to be phased and I think you will
continue to see questions and issues being raised for a number of
months until people gain confidence in using it, staff awareness
and training improves and the newer features are introduced. It
will take time to settle down.


Try it - you *might* like it.

From the postings here it seems that some of the consequences of
this settling down period are increased hassle and expense for some
users even to the point of being refused travel. This is very
off-putting. Does TfL have a suitably responsive system for
learning from these issues that users can also gain some recompense
from?

A trial or development period should not be at the expense of the
paying user.

John Haines


I don't have all the posts, but from the original post in the Fare
Dodging Consequences topic, it seems that there was nothing wrong
with the system the the poster's case. He was fraudulently
travelling in zone one when he only had a zone two card and the
system correctly identified this and charged the person accordingly.
In which case the system was working correctly.

If a person fraudulently travelled in the same way with only a zone
two ticket, as the original poster said that he did regularly, then
that person would be fined if caught by a revenue inspector. Perhaps
the Oyster system can be amended to detect fraud and automatically
deduct a fine as well, with a court referral after X times

Too many people deliberately avoid paying their fare / correct fare
(and seem proud of the fact that they've fiddled something) then
complain when they get caught.

My comments were nothing to do with the Fare Dodging thread. They
relate directly to the paragraph I quoted and to experiences of
legitimate users reported elsewhere.

As far as fare dodging goes, I agree with your comments entirely.

John Haines

In article , (John
Haines) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
In article ,
(John Haines) wrote:

In article , Paul
Corfield wrote:

Pre-Pay is a new product and has not (IMO) settled down. The
launch was always going to be phased and I think you will
continue to see questions and issues being raised for a number of
months until people gain confidence in using it, staff awareness
and training improves and the newer features are introduced. It
will take time to settle down.


Try it - you *might* like it.

From the postings here it seems that some of the consequences of
this settling down period are increased hassle and expense for some
users even to the point of being refused travel. This is very
off-putting. Does TfL have a suitably responsive system for
learning from these issues that users can also gain some recompense
from?

A trial or development period should not be at the expense of the
paying user.

John Haines


I don't have all the posts, but from the original post in the Fare
Dodging Consequences topic, it seems that there was nothing wrong
with the system the the poster's case. He was fraudulently
travelling in zone one when he only had a zone two card and the
system correctly identified this and charged the person accordingly.
In which case the system was working correctly.

If a person fraudulently travelled in the same way with only a zone
two ticket, as the original poster said that he did regularly, then
that person would be fined if caught by a revenue inspector. Perhaps
the Oyster system can be amended to detect fraud and automatically
deduct a fine as well, with a court referral after X times

Too many people deliberately avoid paying their fare / correct fare
(and seem proud of the fact that they've fiddled something) then
complain when they get caught.

My comments were nothing to do with the Fare Dodging thread. They
relate directly to the paragraph I quoted and to experiences of
legitimate users reported elsewhere.

As far as fare dodging goes, I agree with your comments entirely.

John Haines


Sorry, I seem to have got the posts mixed up - I deleted previous postings
as part of a tidy up.

Roger

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

Yes there are benefits for TfL from Oyster but a lot of those are about
providing a better service and more tailored fares products for
passengers. These should encourage usage of public transport -
especially off peak - and isn't this something that is considered to be
"a good thing"?

What are these more tailored fares products? I've not seen any new form of
ticket available on Oyster that I couldn't get on a paper ticket. The 2003
fares in 2004 and reduced off-peak fares could have been introduced for
paper ticket users, but were reserved for Oyster to encourage take up and
presumably to enable a "78% of trips made on LU are done with Oyster, isn't
it a success" poster campaign (no doubt with a picture of Smiling Ken on it,
as if he had anything to do with it).

Dave.

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:53:43 -0000, "Dave Liney"
wrote:


What are these more tailored fares products? I've not seen any new form of
ticket available on Oyster that I couldn't get on a paper ticket. The 2003

What about cheap tube fares at the weekend? Maximum single 1.00 pound
outside Zone 1, 1.80 including Zone 1.

"Richard Adamfi" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:53:43 -0000, "Dave Liney"
wrote:

What are these more tailored fares products? I've not seen any new form
of
ticket available on Oyster that I couldn't get on a paper ticket. The
2003

What about cheap tube fares at the weekend? Maximum single 1.00 pound
outside Zone 1, 1.80 including Zone 1.

It would be very simple to have those available on a paper ticket. As I said
in the bit you snipped. TfL have chosen not to but there is no reason why
they couldn't have them on paper tickets.

The one thing that I had forgotten was the price cap for pre-pay, which is a
good idea. I hope it can think beyond just the one day though to be able to
upgrade you to a weekend travelcard, or even a seven-day season.

Dave.

"Dave Liney" typed



"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

Yes there are benefits for TfL from Oyster but a lot of those are about
providing a better service and more tailored fares products for
passengers. These should encourage usage of public transport -
especially off peak - and isn't this something that is considered to be
"a good thing"?

What are these more tailored fares products? I've not seen any new form of
ticket available on Oyster that I couldn't get on a paper ticket. The 2003
fares in 2004 and reduced off-peak fares could have been introduced for
paper ticket users, but were reserved for Oyster to encourage take up and
presumably to enable a "78% of trips made on LU are done with Oyster, isn't
it a success" poster campaign (no doubt with a picture of Smiling Ken on it,
as if he had anything to do with it).

Dave.


Single Weekend Tube fares are *much* cheaper on Oyster Pre Pay than
standard 2003 fares. They are not available any other way AFAIK. Shame I
couldn't get this last Sunday as the LUL staff I patiently queued for
didn't have a clue.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:53:43 -0000, "Dave Liney"
wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

Yes there are benefits for TfL from Oyster but a lot of those are about
providing a better service and more tailored fares products for
passengers. These should encourage usage of public transport -
especially off peak - and isn't this something that is considered to be
"a good thing"?

What are these more tailored fares products? I've not seen any new form of
ticket available on Oyster that I couldn't get on a paper ticket. The 2003
fares in 2004 and reduced off-peak fares could have been introduced for
paper ticket users, but were reserved for Oyster to encourage take up and
presumably to enable a "78% of trips made on LU are done with Oyster, isn't
it a success" poster campaign (no doubt with a picture of Smiling Ken on it,
as if he had anything to do with it).

Well when we did the spec we allowed for off peak discounted fares,
against the peak flow discounted pricing, through ticketing on one fare
for bus to bus or bus to tube as well as One Day tickets on the card
etc. These are quite complex products and will not be introduced on day
one but I expect some of them to emerge in time - the Long Term TfL
Fares Policy document suggests that they will.

Capping wasn't something we thought of initially but fares policy in
London has changed considerably since Ken took over. Also I expect the
idea of capping to One Day prices emerged from market research into how
people would react to a Stored Value product. Certainly before Oyster
emerged it was clear from questions on this group that people were
reticent to commit to a stored value card if they ran the risk of
"overpaying" relative to a One Day ticket they were already familiar
with.

There are further big changes proposed with a big increase in
interavailability with National Rail routes - this being partly linked
to the development of the Overground Network.

Of course there is an incentive to get people onto Oyster - it is about
reducing the need to queue and allowing the card and gates to do the
fare calculation. Unless the ticket machine fare tables have been
re-engineered (and they might have been) then it is not possible to have
differentially priced single fares for the peak and off peak. Well it
*is* but everyone would have to buy tickets from ticket offices which is
not exactly a good idea.

As for a Ken poster then so what? He's in charge now - he wasn't when we
designed the system and negotiated the contract. When did issues like
that ever stop a politician taking the credit for current events?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!