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Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:44:20 +0000, The Real Doctor
wrote: On 05/01/12 13:55, Lüko Willms wrote: Does he fire any gay person from the Scotrail operations he manages? He doesn't manage Scotrail. He owns it. We call that "capitalism". He doesn't own ScotRail, he is joint owner of Stagecoach Group. The brand "ScotRail" (not to be confused with "ScotRail prefixed or suffixed Ltd.") belongs to the Scottish Government. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:42:50 +0100, Lüko Willms
wrote: Am 05.01.2012 15:39, schrieb Graham Nye: In the UK, shares of state-owned companies ("nationalised", in our terminology) aren't traded on a stock exchange. All shares are retained by the state and none are sold. Only if the state decides to sell the company ("privatise" it) will the shares be released for trading in a stock exchange. or selling chunks of shares directly to an "investor". Did they put the shares of British Rail up for sale on the stock exchange? Not as far as I know. There weren't any. British Rail was a trading title of British Railways which was a statutary corporation not involving share capital. What was sold were the assets which had been transferred into the holding of several companies. snip |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 5 Jan., 19:54, Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 05/01/2012 14:49, Graeme Wall wrote: On 05/01/2012 14:46, Graham Nye wrote: On 05/01/2012 13:46, Lüko Willms wrote: Am 04.01.2012 14:26, schrieb Graham Nye: On 04/01/2012 10:01, Lüko Willms wrote: Under capitalist rule, you will find that most state owned enterprises are actually operated with the objective to make profit. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/12 02:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:44:20 +0000, The Real Doctor wrote: On 05/01/12 13:55, Lüko Willms wrote: Does he fire any gay person from the Scotrail operations he manages? He doesn't manage Scotrail. He owns it. We call that "capitalism". He doesn't own ScotRail, he is joint owner of Stagecoach Group. The brand "ScotRail" (not to be confused with "ScotRailprefixed or suffixed Ltd.") belongs to the Scottish Government. I know. I was simplifying things to a level which I thought Lüko would be able to understand. Mind you, I think I was wrong, anyway, 'cos Scotrail is run by First, isn't it, who are Stagecoach's biggest rivals. I was thinking of Virgin. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
Maybe you are confusing various parts of Berlin? Köpenick is in the East, Funkturm in the West. I'm sorry I ,meant the Fernhesturm. I don't think the Funkturm has a cafe .. As a good radio amateur I naturally went up the Funkturm as well. It had a good radio museum on the ground floor at the time and I think it was still in use for SFB BBC and BFBS. AT the time Berlin had more FM stations than anywhere else becasue there was also the DDR networks from the Fernesturm, , French forces , AFN and RIAS as we;;/ .. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
I think his point was, and I think he is right, that the DDR authorities
allowed anyone to cross the wall who was either not one of their own nationals or a national of another country (ie the Eastern Block) with whom they had an agreement to stop travel. The West German authorities did not check entries to West Berlin from East Berlin, presumably because of the four powers agreement which said that West Berlin was made up of British, American and French Sectors. Nationals of anywhere outside the Eastern Block could arrive at Schonefeld Airport and get a transit visa to Friedrichstrasse and cross into the West there. If I recall it resulted in quite a few Palestinians living in West Berlin at the time. As an aside there's quite a good article on Friedrichstrasse Station (in English) on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_...C3%9Fe_station which has diagrams and other periond information, |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/12 10:37, Steve Fitzgerald wrote:
In message , Charles Ellson writes He doesn't manage Scotrail. He owns it. We call that "capitalism". He doesn't own ScotRail, he is joint owner of Stagecoach Group. The brand "ScotRail" (not to be confused with "ScotRail prefixed or suffixed Ltd.") belongs to the Scottish Government. And last I heard was managed by First group which is nothing to do with Stagecoach. Yeah, yeah, I know. Lüko's mistake, and I feel a bit silly for not having spotted it. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
In message , at 14:26:33 on Thu, 5 Jan 2012,
The Real Doctor remarked: Hitler apologists Paging Mike Godwin. -- Roland Perry |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
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Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
In message , at 19:03:33 on
Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Charles Ellson remarked: Mercury was also mentioned but unlike BT they had nothing in the way of a universal service obligation and served a very small market. I'm not aware that dialling the Mercury Access code was in any way restricted, other than people, wherever they were, signing up for a Mercury subscription. -- Roland Perry |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
In message , at
20:27:07 on Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Arthur Figgis remarked: I dare say that _all_ of the price drops was due to a change in technology (computerization of switches, optical fibers, better channel division). = attacks on the jobs of the girls who plug the connections in to put calls through. Long ago [c1975] I employed (as a PA) one of the last remaining manual telephone exchange operators. The tales she used to tell me about the antics of customers has coloured my outlook ever since. -- Roland Perry |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
In message , at 19:03:33 on Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Charles Ellson remarked: Mercury was also mentioned but unlike BT they had nothing in the way of a universal service obligation and served a very small market. I'm not aware that dialling the Mercury Access code was in any way restricted, other than people, wherever they were, signing up for a Mercury subscription. I still use a phone that has a blue Mercury button! I was never a Mercury customer, and never worked out how to reprogram the button to do something more useful. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
In message , at 14:41:13 on
Fri, 6 Jan 2012, Recliner remarked: I'm not aware that dialling the Mercury Access code was in any way restricted, other than people, wherever they were, signing up for a Mercury subscription. I still use a phone that has a blue Mercury button! I was never a Mercury customer, and never worked out how to reprogram the button to do something more useful. I think they came programmed to prepend "131", not sure if that can be changed. -- Roland Perry |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/12 14:32, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm not aware that dialling the Mercury Access code was in any way restricted, other than people, wherever they were, signing up for a Mercury subscription. The original 131+PIN service was only available to some exchanges, though the number of those increased with time. The later 132 service was, I think, available everywhere. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/12 14:52, Roland Perry wrote:
I think they came programmed to prepend "131", not sure if that can be changed. The one I had did 131, pause, PIN. You only entered the PIN and couldn't get rid of the 131, so it was no use for anything else. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:32:30 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 19:03:33 on Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Charles Ellson remarked: Mercury was also mentioned but unlike BT they had nothing in the way of a universal service obligation and served a very small market. I'm not aware that dialling the Mercury Access code was in any way restricted, other than people, wherever they were, signing up for a Mercury subscription. Mercury was not providing the infrastructure for that service, merely using an established provider to connect the calls to their much smaller network, a bit like Sainsburys being obliged to allow a competitor to set up order desks within its premises. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:09:38 +0000, The Real Doctor
wrote: On 06/01/12 02:14, Charles Ellson wrote: On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:44:20 +0000, The Real Doctor wrote: On 05/01/12 13:55, Lüko Willms wrote: Does he fire any gay person from the Scotrail operations he manages? He doesn't manage Scotrail. He owns it. We call that "capitalism". He doesn't own ScotRail, he is joint owner of Stagecoach Group. The brand "ScotRail" (not to be confused with "ScotRailprefixed or suffixed Ltd.") belongs to the Scottish Government. I know. I was simplifying things to a level which I thought Lüko would be able to understand. Not always a good idea, IME it sometimes actually makes it more complicated. :-( Mind you, I think I was wrong, anyway, 'cos Scotrail is run by First, isn't it, IIRC only on the basis they are the only current contractor/franchisee for the services covered by that brand. who are Stagecoach's biggest rivals. I was thinking of Virgin. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 15:50, schrieb Graham Nye:
The links are legitimate. You can look at them safely. If that is the case, why are they hidden? Is there something to be ashamed of? L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 15:56, schrieb The Real Doctor:
But you did think it appropriate to introduce the Hitlerzeit, the Falklands and so on. You raised 'em, you deal with 'em. Sometimes I do descend to your level. You know, like Dante. Not to the lowest, though. But you always try to avoid addressing the issued under debate and try instead staging a show trial. But your victim is not ready to undergo your treatment. And the judge always throws your case out of court. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 16:07, schrieb Graham Nye:
Given your constant evasion of questions about life in the DDR and its fellow travellers you must be aware of its shortcomings. Why don't you belatedly join the rest of your fellow citizens in welcoming the fall of the DDR? If you don't like living in modern-day Germany you can at least leave it without being shot in the back. You try to stage a show trial, but your victim is not disposed to masochism. And the judge threw your case out of court. Come back to the subject of debate. Ask your questions about it, and you might get answers. But Stalin's show trials, or the ones of king Henry VIII won't be repeated here. Sorry for you, but you do not have the necessary police force for that. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 15:46, schrieb Graham Nye:
Right of centre states aren't likely, by their own principles, to retain profitable enterprises under state control. Can you give some examples of capitalist states operating profitable enterprises? Germany, France, United States, certainly many many others. What is a "Right of centre state"? Poland? Belarus? L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 06.01.2012 14:09, schrieb The Real Doctor:
And last I heard was managed by First group which is nothing to do with Stagecoach. Yeah, yeah, I know. Lüko's mistake, and I feel a bit silly for not having spotted it. but this error is not substantial to the issue under discussion. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 16:04, schrieb Neil Williams:
It is an interesting speculative exercise to try and guess what might have happened had BR been successfully privatised as one single integrated company, as happened with some of the early privatised utilities (eg, British Gas). It might well have been a great success, just as many of the early privatisations have been (eg, BT, BA, BG). I imagine it may have acted in many ways similarly to DB AG, which operates in a far more politically-unencumbered way than BR ever did, regardless of who happens to own it. The thatcherite ideology that no possibilty to make a profit may be barred to all those bloodsuckers around to enrich themselves at the cost of all caused them to created relatively small companies which are very small compared to the big "players" on the continent like SNCF, DB, or Trenitalia. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 18:56, schrieb Arthur Figgis:
if the owner is the state, the thing is state owned. and if the horse is black, it is not white. But that does not preclude in any way that this thing is a "commercial company". L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 15:50, schrieb bob:
On 2 Jan., 13:04, Lüko wrote: Am 01.01.2012 23:27, schrieb Neil Williams: If it's owned by the Government it's nationalised, whatever means that ownership may take, IMO. you have a strange concept of "nationalization" It's the one that agrees with my dictionary (and wikipedia). Throw the dictionary away. Did you write this Wikipedia article yourself? You know about Citogenesis? Look he http://xkcd.com/978/ Do you really believe that the composition of the shareholders makes a qualitative difference for the commercial activity of a company? Absolutely it does. I'm sorry for you. There are reams and reams of laws governing the relationships between parent companies and subsidiaries, and the stake one company can hold in another before it is deemed to be a subsidiary which does not mean that the owning company does exert any influence on the activities of the management of the company. At which percentage of ownership by a state entity does a company stop being "really a commercial operator"? 50% +1 share. Didn't you say 30% before? Or was that somebody else? Those marks are really very arbitrary, don't you think so? Too arbitrary to be a scientific fact. At that point the government shareholding is a controlling interest, and the private shareholders combined can not vote down any measure imposed by the controlling shareholder. At Deutsche Bahn AG, the Federal Republic of Germany may not have more than 3 seats out of 20 on the supervisory board. Can those three really make a majority of 20? Do you really believe this idiotic nonsense? The courts and parliament do. What about the Rothaus brewery, just to cite one little example? Definitely. Commerzbank? Northern Rock? RBS? Yes to all of them. And now Northern Rock does freely give credits for the lowest interest rates, undercutting all other banks? Do you really believe this bull****? Come down on earth! Life does not stick to your rigid ideas! L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 15:52, schrieb The Real Doctor:
Again slandering and avoiding the subject under discussion: Says the man who accuses anyone who disagrees with him of being a Hitler apologist No. You just show again that you are a habitual liar. You introduced the Third Reich, the Falklands and so on as topics. No, why should I? At most I gave you a catchword so that you would show your allegeance to colonialism (see above quoted line showing your insult to Argentina. It seems that you see this as the usual show trial scene for you? No, I'm wholly opposed to show trials But you try again and again to mount a show trial. But your victim is not at your disposal. ------ quote --------- I just pointed out the fact that Herr Schnell is upset about the Berlin railway workers still enjoying labor standards which they had acquired during GDR times. --------- unquote -------- You claim that the subway workers ought to be happy with ("enjoying" is the key word) DDR labour standards. I'm still not clear whether you think that should enjoy shooting them if they want to move west. Again, who in above sentence is said to be upset? I didn't make any claims about anyone being upset. What I wrote was "And there you go, judging what people should or should not be happy with." I was referring to the railway workers. But you do not address the person who is making that claim, which is Herr Schnell, your cothinker. Instead you do nothing but trying to mount a show trial in the best tradition of Stalin. Just sucking accusations out of your finger, and putting up "questions" like "When did you stop to beat your wife?!". You are disgusting. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 15:57, schrieb Graham Nye:
So thread drift is only a problem for you on selected occasions? I certainly reject any effort to mount a show trial. I am not ready to stand as victim for "questions" like "When did you stop to beat your wife?!". And George Orwell is one of my preferred writers, and the 1st of the English writers of the 20th century. So I can rarely resist to defend him against the vile attacks from various political quarters. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 22:15, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
It confirmed what I thought, but not your claim that West Germany asked for controls at the Berlin wall I'm afraid. Well, the GDR did control at the GDR/Westberlin and GDR/FRG borders, but Bonn wanted the GDR to close the last hole in the Berlin Wall. They wanted the GDR to akt as an auxiliary police force for Westberlin and the FRG, preventing everyone from leaving the GDR who had not the necessary visa for entering Westberlin or the FRG. That is a historical fact. I know that it does not conform to the thought control of the government-official historical lies, but facts are stubborn things. They might hurt when one tries to ignore them. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 05.01.2012 22:15, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
saying that the West German government were hypocrites because they demanded free travel only as long as it suited them. But that is true. Why do you think that many people are currently in German prisons for the only "crime" of being in the country? He would have a point if he'd got his facts right, unfortunately he doesn't. The facts do not conform with the historical fiction of the FRG. But that is not a problem for the facts, but for the "official" government controlled history writing. The west never acted the way he pretends. Of course, you must pretend not to have noted the obvious. Poor fella. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 06.01.2012 18:51, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
the border towards East Berlin was not an international border, but merely a sector boundary within the joint occupation zone of Berlin. in your fictional thinking. But reality was different. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 06.01.2012 11:57, schrieb Paul Rigg:
I think his point was, and I think he is right, that the DDR authorities allowed anyone to cross the wall who was either not one of their own nationals or a national of another country (ie the Eastern Block) with whom they had an agreement to stop travel. The West German authorities did not check entries to West Berlin from East Berlin, presumably because of the four powers agreement which said that West Berlin was made up of British, American and French Sectors. Nationals of anywhere outside the Eastern Block could arrive at Schonefeld Airport and get a transit visa to Friedrichstrasse and cross into the West there. If I recall it resulted in quite a few Palestinians living in West Berlin at the time. The astonishing thing is that Herr Schwanke does not put YOU on the bank of culprits for stating the facts. And in the fall of 1987, the Westberlin and FRG authorities with their press waged a big campaign to force the GDR government to close the last hole in the wall which you describe above. Thanks for stating the facts! Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Jan 6, 6:08 pm, Charles Ellson wrote: On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 10:09:38 +0000, The Real Doctor [...] Mind you, I think I was wrong, anyway, 'cos Scotrail is run by First, isn't it, IIRC only on the basis they are the only current contractor/franchisee for the services covered by that brand. Which is a somewhat long winded way of saying 'yes' ! |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Jan 6, 6:17*pm, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 05.01.2012 15:50, schrieb Graham Nye: The links are legitimate. You can look at them safely. * *If that is the case, why are they hidden? Is there something to be ashamed of? L.W. I just shortened them because, in the absence of HTML, they're ugly. If you're too scared to follow links to the LIbrary of Congress and Wikipedia, that's your problem. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/2012 20:45, ian batten wrote:
If you're too scared to follow links to the LIbrary of Congress Oooo! Library of Congress? Works of fiction in the capitalist west! Can't access that - beware lies and more lies! [Keep the thread running, please, it's the comedy highlight of 2012.] -- Dave, Frodsham http://s1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc461/Davy41/ |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/12 18:52, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 05.01.2012 15:57, schrieb Graham Nye: So thread drift is only a problem for you on selected occasions? I certainly reject any effort to mount a show trial. I am not ready to stand as victim for "questions" like "When did you stop to beat your wife?!". The point about "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is that an honest answer from an innocent person sounds bad. "Do you believe the Holocaust happened?" is not that sort of question, and your continued declining to answer it is both disappointing and, regrettably, suggestive. For a man who takes every opportunity to attack the British state for evildoing, you are curiously reluctant to say anything at all critical about the Third Reich. I can understand (if not sympathise) with your political reasons for refusing to criticise Soviet repression and colonialism, but the Nazis surely merit at least a mild rebuke? Regards Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/12 19:23, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
The West German governement positively denied immigration to any number of foreigners, and they may well have asked East Germany to help them doing so. I'm not disputing it, I'm saying that's fine. But they never locked any person into the country - convicted criminals excepted of course -, or asked another government to do so. They positively never asked the East German government to lock foreign asylum seakers into the Eastern bloc, like they did with their own citizens. What was West German policy towards those who escaped from the East? Were they allowed to settle in the West as a matter of right? Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
In message , at 17:58:26 on
Fri, 6 Jan 2012, Charles Ellson remarked: Mercury was also mentioned but unlike BT they had nothing in the way of a universal service obligation and served a very small market. I'm not aware that dialling the Mercury Access code was in any way restricted, other than people, wherever they were, signing up for a Mercury subscription. Mercury was not providing the infrastructure for that service, merely using an established provider to connect the calls to their much smaller network, a bit like Sainsburys being obliged to allow a competitor to set up order desks within its premises. It's a bit more complicated than that, because Mercury was, where available, able to use its own infrastructure for backbone and international calling (which was after all C&W's core business). The main thing they were doing was sharing the local loop, and the domestic market was always a bit of a distraction from their offering to businesses. -- Roland Perry |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/12 18:48, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 05.01.2012 15:52, schrieb The Real Doctor: Again slandering and avoiding the subject under discussion: Says the man who accuses anyone who disagrees with him of being a Hitler apologist No. You just show again that you are a habitual liar. Well, you've accused me on several occasions in this thread alone of being a Hitler nostalgist. Not a shred of evidence, of course, and completely irrelevant to the points under debate. Good heavens, this takes me back to the heady days of student life in the 1980s, and the lefties who shrieked "fascist" at anyone who disagreed with them. Particularly other lefties, of course. You introduced the Third Reich, the Falklands and so on as topics. No, why should I? I don't know. No, I'm wholly opposed to show trials But you try again and again to mount a show trial. But your victim is not at your disposal. Not like the good old days of the NKVD, eh? You are disgusting. I am cut to the quick. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/12 18:41, Lüko Willms wrote:
Life does not stick to your rigid ideas! You said it, Lüko baby, you said it. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 06/01/12 18:31, Lüko Willms wrote:
The thatcherite ideology that no possibilty to make a profit may be barred to all those bloodsuckers around to enrich themselves at the cost of all Readers who are having difficult extracting any meaning out of that may care to note that Google translate renders it in German as "Die Thatcher-Ideologie, keine Möglichkeit, einen Gewinn zu machen, um all jene Blutsauger kann ausgeschlossen werden, um sich auf Kosten aller zu bereichern" which it then translates back into English as "The Thatcher ideology, no way to make a profit to all those bloodsuckers can be excluded in order to enrich themselves at the expense of all" which I am sure everybody will agree is much clearer. Ian PS My lathe and milling machine were both made in the DDR and sold for profit. |
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