Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

" wrote:
Does the Royal Mail receive any subsidies or is it responsible for
its
own financial well-being and charged with making a profit?


The latter, and Royal Mail is currently making a healthy profit. The
profits go into a reserve account and are supposed to be used for
investment and/or to cover future losses, but the Treasury tends to
keep it and deny permission for investment. RM suffered serious
losses for some years as a result of investment plans being cancelled
by the Treasury. :-(


France's SNCF is state-owned, though I heard an official once say
that
they have not received any since the early 1980s. Of course, I have
no
way of knowing if that is true or not.


At one point in the early 1990s, SNCF vied for the title of the
world's most indebted company with EdF, the French electricity
company. The debt was about the equivalent of three times' Network
Rail's current debt. The debt was run up by borrowing money to build
the LGVs.

The French government moved the debt out of SNCF and into an
infrastructure company which has no means of ever paying it off.
Meanwhile, SNCF claimed that the TGVs were making a profit, which was
patently untrue.

The same was done with EdF, and France's claim that the country
enjoys cheap nuclear power while EdF makes profits is also patently
untrue because, in each case, the debt remains.

The French government's innate ability to borrow colossal sums of
money and conveniently forget about its debts is why France's credit
rating has been downgraded.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 02/01/2012 20:18, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote
in :

They were running steam engines well into the 1970s, were they not.

Yes, but that was true in West Germany. East Germany used steam
traction into the 1980s on goods trains.

Didn't know that. Where else in Europe, either East or West, were they
running steam in revenue service until the 80s?

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 02/01/2012 20:28, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote in
:

IIRC, some of the trains from the East Berlin U-Bahn wound up in
revenue service on the Pyongyang Metro.

http://www.pyongyang-metro.com/

It's the fourth picture down when you click on the photos link.

Actually all rolling stock on the Pyongyang metro is from Berlin, but
there are two different types.

The box shaped ones are G stock, a narrow profile type made in East
Berlin in the 1970s/80s and still in service today:
http://www.berliner-verkehr.de/ufg.htm

Giselas! Yes, I remember riding a couple when I visited Berlin in the
'90s. I remember most vividly the noise they would make when coming to a
halt.

I wonder if any of them are still in revenue service in Pyongyang,
because any videos of the place seem to show only Dorotas.

Admittedly, however, those videos only show YÅ�nggwang and PuhÅ*ng, on the
Ch�llima line. I have also seen a contemporary photo of Kaes�n station,
which is also on the Ch�llima line. But those photos were official and
showed only the Chinese-built stock that they had run.

Perhaps the Giselas are on the Hy�ksin line? I have seen official
pictures of HwanggÅ*mbÅ�l and KÅ�n'guk, but nothing contemporary or
independently taken.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
 

"Bruce" wrote in message


The French government's innate ability to borrow colossal sums of
money and conveniently forget about its debts is why France's credit
rating has been downgraded.

It still has a AAA credit rating.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 02/01/2012 20:47, wrote:
On 02/01/2012 20:18, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote
in :

They were running steam engines well into the 1970s, were they not.

Yes, but that was true in West Germany. East Germany used steam
traction into the 1980s on goods trains.

Didn't know that. Where else in Europe, either East or West, were they
running steam in revenue service until the 80s?

When did BR cease operating the VoR?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 20:46, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
The thatcherites have just called me loony left. What's your label?

Social-democrat.

So einer der alten Schule, kaiserlicher Hofsozialdemokrat.

Immer brav den Arsch zusammenkneifen und gehorsamst den Krieg führen
für die eigenen Ausbeuter.



mfG,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 02/01/2012 20:28, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote in
:

IIRC, some of the trains from the East Berlin U-Bahn wound up in
revenue service on the Pyongyang Metro.

http://www.pyongyang-metro.com/

It's the fourth picture down when you click on the photos link.

Actually all rolling stock on the Pyongyang metro is from Berlin, but
there are two different types.

The box shaped ones are G stock, a narrow profile type made in East
Berlin in the 1970s/80s and still in service today:
http://www.berliner-verkehr.de/ufg.htm

The ones with the red/white livery are D stock, wide profile made in
West Berlin in the 1950s/60s. Some were transferred to East Berlin in
the late 1980s, and finally sold off to Korea in the 1990s.
http://www.berliner-verkehr.de/ufd.htm


Is there a good book in English about the Berlin S & U Bahns?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 13:35, schrieb Neil Williams:
What about the Rothaus brewery, just to cite one little example?
Commerzbank?

Are they owned by the state? If so they are nationalised. As are a few
UK banks, at least in part.

So what? In what respect does that cause the commercial company to
collapse?

I guess you are also looking at the color of the skin of the
shareholders, or their religion.

Really, really crazy.


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 18:37, schrieb :
France's SNCF is state-owned, though I heard an official once say that
they have not received any since the early 1980s. Of course, I have no
way of knowing if that is true or not.

SNCF proudly announced that they pay 223 million Euros (or so)
dividents to their shareholder.

The German federal government decided that they want a 500 million
Euro dividend from the shares they hold of Deutsche Bahn AG.


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 13:26, schrieb Graeme Wall:
You don't even know the history of your own country yet you presume to
lecture others on their history.

I guess you learned history from the Ministry of Truth.

George Orwell knew very well what he wrote. About his countrymen...
He collect his experiences at the BBC.


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On Jan 2, 10:40*pm, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 02.01.2012 13:26, schrieb Graeme Wall:

You don't even know the history of your own country yet you presume to
lecture others on their history.

* *I guess you learned history from the Ministry of Truth.

* *George Orwell knew very well what he wrote. About his countrymen....

Whom he then denounced to the secret police.

ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 20:46, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:

regurgitating the official party line, fantasising about me

telling an orthodox East German party line version, or a
caricature of it. He does know that much.

The problem for you and all other apologists for the dictatorship of
the tiny propertied minority is that I actually do report the facts
instead of a ideological spin of comfortable lies.

if you would care about facts, you would also find that the GDR
officials and their stalinist heirs also do not tell the historical facts.

I recommend a book from the socialdemocratic publishing house
"Einheit oder Freiheit" (don't have the author in mind right now) -- an
apology for the activity of K. Schumacher in dividing the SPD and the
country as a whole, but written too early to deny all facts.


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

"Lüko Willms" wrote in message

Am 02.01.2012 18:37, schrieb :
France's SNCF is state-owned, though I heard an official once say
that they have not received any since the early 1980s. Of course, I
have no way of knowing if that is true or not.

SNCF proudly announced that they pay 223 million Euros (or so)
dividents to their shareholder.

The German federal government decided that they want a 500 million
Euro dividend from the shares they hold of Deutsche Bahn AG.

If it was a real commercial company, the shareholders wouldn't get to
choose the dividend level. Only when the government level of
shareholding falls below 30% can it be regarded as anything other than a
nationalised company.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:54:37 +0100, Lüko Willms
wrote:

Am 02.01.2012 11:46, schrieb ian batten:

dreaming up some insults:

He
thinks that Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968 were justified
reactions to western imperialism. That's why he isn't busy denying
Stalin killed anyone and if he did they they deserved it anyway.

You should be jailed for such lies.

For what criminal offence ?

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 20:14, schrieb The Real Doctor:
On 02/01/12 13:40, wrote:
But the train drivers themselves were East German, as I understood. DR
also made sure that the drivers had families in the east, just in case
they started thinking staying in the west.

Surely the superior employment conditions were more than enough to keep
them in the east without all this business of family hostages,
minefields, machine guns and so on?

And that is what Herr Schnell wants to destroy.

And you are trying to evade to understand what Herr Schnell is
proposing to destroy "the last socialistic company", as he wrote in his
own words, by telling stories of shooting workers and all the rubbish
from your garbage can of propaganda. No, Herr Schnell does not want to
shoot all railway workers in Berlin. He only wants to humiliate them
enough so that they lose everything and are helpless objects of the
capitalist whip. Making a profitable company for DB AG or what ever
other capitalist.

You avoid at all cost to consider the facts. Instead you vomit this
old age garbage propaganda out.

Facts, facts, facts. That's the only thing which counts.

You don't want to know the facts about the real Berlin railway
workers, only the artificial figures from your propaganda.

You are really a poor figure.


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 23:44, schrieb ian batten:
On Jan 2, 10:40 pm, Lüko wrote:
Am 02.01.2012 13:26, schrieb Graeme Wall:

You don't even know the history of your own country yet you presume to
lecture others on their history.

I guess you learned history from the Ministry of Truth.

George Orwell knew very well what he wrote. About his countrymen...

Whom he then denounced to the secret police.

Ah, now you pick up the stalinist slander against Orwell!

You do not shy away from sinking ever deeper in the gutter.

Why don't you try to wake up and try to have a look at the situation
and history of the Berlin railway workers? Are those facts so scary for
you, that you have to blind yourself by throwing garbage around you?


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 13:37, schrieb Neil Williams:
On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:24:50 +0100, Lüko
wrote:
Same issue as with the wheel crises of DB's ICE trains.

That was silly of DB, as BR had already considered, tested and rejected
composite wheels for HST and APT.

Are we talking about the ICE-1 or the ICE-3?

In the latter, DB took very few decisions, as far as I know.


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 23:50, schrieb Recliner:
Only when the government level of
shareholding falls below 30% can it be regarded as anything other than a
nationalised company.

Whatever you may want to make up.

But reality doesn't care about your laughing stock schemata.

Do you also care about the color of the skin of the shareholdes,
their religion, their sexual orientation, their preferred sports?


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 02/01/12 23:50, Lüko Willms wrote:
No, Herr Schnell does not want to shoot all railway workers in Berlin.

You misunderstand me. It was your chums in the DDR politbüro who were
prepared to shoot working class people who wanted to move to the west.
As you say, current politicians are nowhere near as bad.

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 02/01/12 23:19, Charles Ellson wrote:
For what criminal offence ?

I believe that both Holocaust denial and exoneration of Hitler are
criminal offences in Germany.

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 03.01.2012 00:44, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
Social-democrat.

So I'm a loony left social democrat. Can you folks first agree on what
to call me and then insult me?

You asked, and I call you the same as I always called Karsten Voigt.

Your main problem is that you believe all the propaganda lies which
you have been fed from the propaganda ministry or "Bundesanstalt für
politische Bildung".

I know you.


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 19:39, schrieb The Real Doctor:
No, I mean people like you are are nostalic of the past imperialist
glories of their masters,

Nope.

of Hitler,

Don't be silly. I'm not the one claiming that Hitler's aggression was
prompted by a desire to free the oppressed of the British empire.

Well, it doesn't matter if you adore the English equivalent.

Types like you, if they are German, are nostalgic of imperialist
policies of the _German_ capitalist class, as embodied by Kaiser Wilhelm
(the one of the hun speech) and Hitler. It doesn't matter which chief
robber a friend of robbery does adore, what counts is that he adores the
imperialist robbery.


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 03.01.2012 00:19, schrieb Charles Ellson:
dreaming up some insults:

He
thinks that Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968 were justified
reactions to western imperialism. That's why he isn't busy denying
Stalin killed anyone and if he did they they deserved it anyway.

You should be jailed for such lies.

For what criminal offence ?

insult. Claiming false facts to denigrate the standing of other
people, against better knowledge.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 19:08, schrieb ian batten:
So tell us about 1956 and 1968.

We are talkaing about the Berlin railway workers of today, and the
whish of Herr Schnell to smash them as belonging to "the last
socialistic company".

You try to avoid the subject of this discussion as the devil shies
away from the holy water.

Say something about the subject of the discussion, or shut up.


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 19:35, schrieb The Real Doctor:
They wanted West German conditions. They got 'em.

Why don't you consider the plans advanced by Herr Schnell to smash
the Berlin railway workers because they work "the last socialistic
company" in Germany? Obviously your cothinker does not thing that the
Berlin railway workers did get all West German conditions. He thinks
that they have too much of what he calls "socialistic" conditions and
wants to take them away so that the Berlin S-Bahn can be operated as a
real profit producting capitalistic company, which according to your
cothinker requires to take away from those workers conquests they had
gotten in GDR times?

Look into those facts, and do not always try to avoid the subject of
our discussion like the plague!

Train seats was Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin TrainSystem - could it??? happen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 18:10, schrieb Clark F Morris:
Apparently various airlines are experimenting with very thin back
seats, maybe a webbing type back which allow the seats to be closer
together yet still give enough room for comfort. I saw an article on
this in the Wall Street Journal and I THINK one of the airlines was
Lufthansa.

DB will have those on their new intercity stock, the one which has
been tendered as "ICx".


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 03.01.2012 00:57, schrieb The Real Doctor:
No, Herr Schnell does not want to shoot all railway workers in Berlin.

You misunderstand me. It was your chums in the DDR politbüro who were
prepared to shoot working class people who wanted to move to the west.

What has that to do with the current situation of the Berlin railway
workers? And the fact that your reactionary cothinker Herr Schnell sees
a need to drastically lower the living standard and working conditions
of those workers, in order to turn the Berlin S-Bahn into a proper
capitalistic profit generating company?

Please elaborate on the subject of discussion instead of constantly
trying to turn the attention of your public away from it by makeing loud
noises about off-topic issues?


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
 

In article ,
(Graeme Wall) wrote:

On 02/01/2012 20:28, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote in
:

IIRC, some of the trains from the East Berlin U-Bahn wound up in
revenue service on the Pyongyang Metro.

http://www.pyongyang-metro.com/

It's the fourth picture down when you click on the photos link.

Actually all rolling stock on the Pyongyang metro is from Berlin, but
there are two different types.

The box shaped ones are G stock, a narrow profile type made in East
Berlin in the 1970s/80s and still in service today:
http://www.berliner-verkehr.de/ufg.htm

The ones with the red/white livery are D stock, wide profile made in
West Berlin in the 1950s/60s. Some were transferred to East Berlin in
the late 1980s, and finally sold off to Korea in the 1990s.
http://www.berliner-verkehr.de/ufd.htm


Is there a good book in English about the Berlin S & U Bahns?

Didn't Capital Transport do one? They did on the Paris Metro.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 03.01.2012 00:58, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
Lüko wrote

And you are trying to evade to understand what Herr Schnell is
proposing to destroy "the last socialistic company", as he wrote in his
own words,

And you agree with him, except you want to defend it? You're both
fools. The Berlin S-Bahn is not "a socialist company".

You may have noted that I use this "socialistic [sic] company" only
in quotes, first in order to make clear that I quote Herr Schnell, and
secondly in order to make clear that I do not use such a label.



Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 21:24, schrieb :
I thought that certain luxury goods were sold duty-free at
Alexanderplatz at kiosk that belonged to a East German trading company
(state-owned, of course). This really annoyed West German authorities,
and they would sometimes place Federal customs officers at stations with
the sole purpose of catching anybody carrying such goods purchased in
East Germany.

In 1987, the West German and West Berlin media (and authorities)
waged a big campaign against the GDR to force them to close the last
hole in the wall, and to act as a auxiliary police force of the West
Berlin cops.

People who landed at the Schönefeld airport and who had a transit
visa for the GDR could enter West Berlin via the Friedrichstraße
checkpoint. The West Berlin police did not want to establish their own
immigration control. They wanted the GDR border police to do it for
them. The Wessies detested the free travel across the Berlin wall...


L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 21:47, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
I also know that at least one line on the West Berlin U-Bahn went via
a part of East German territory.

Two U-Bahn lines and one S-Bahn line, see wikipedia link above.

These were underground lines, so easily closed off against crossing
the border. The North-South S-Bahn and one of the U-Bahn lines (U6, I
believe) had stops at Friedrichstraße, where people could change between
these two lines and to the S-Bahn going West on the Stadtbahn East-West
elevated line, or cross the border into the GDR.

Friedrichstraße was quite a complicated labyrinth back then. I mostly
preferred to cross there, when I did not come by car.

The two S-Bahn platforms on the Stadtbahn (elevated East-West lines)
which today are directional, one going West, the other going East, had
been converted into two terminal platforms with two tracks, one for the
intra West Berlin traffic, the other for the intra East Berlin traffic.
With an opaque glass wall between the two...

I think the long distance platform at Friedrichstraße was also
already open to West Berlin, but I am not sure of that.


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 20:46, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
It's not very socialist though.

you like labes which dispense from considering facts.

I prefer facts and avoiding labels.

Facts and an open mind is what counts.



L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 03/01/12 00:19, Lüko Willms wrote:
What has that to do with the current situation of the Berlin railway
workers?

I don't know. You're the one who seems to think that the DB workforce in
Berlin should be happy with DDR standards of living and freedom.

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 03.01.2012 00:53, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
Is there a good book in English about the Berlin S& U Bahns?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Berlin-S-Bah...dp/1854141856/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Berlin-U-Bah...dp/1854141848/

Better written than some of their German counterparts.

Really. Might be worth to have a look at them.

There are some copies available at used book sellers:

http://www.zvab.com/advancedSearch.do?author=Hardy%2C+Brian&publisher= &title=Berlin+Bahn&keyword=&anyWords=&isbn=&public ationYearFrom=&publicationYearTo=&priceFrom=&price To=&itemMedium=al&countryOfSeller=all&languageOfBo ok=all&lastXDays=-1&displayCurrency=EUR&itemsPerPage=25&totalItemCou nt=200&sortBy=1


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

Am 02.01.2012 20:15, schrieb The Real Doctor:
On 02/01/12 12:23, Lüko Willms wrote:
The nurses, teachers and railway workers are not the ones who
appropriate profits.

Where do you think their pay comes from, then?

From their work.

Workers ("proletarians") are the ones who produce all wealth.

You may say, that the wages are actually the price for the labor
power layed out by the capitalist as 'variable capital'. Variable,
because only human labor produces new values.

The capitalist appropriates himself the product of the worker's
labor, and then has the risky task of realizing this newly produced
surplus value in moeny.

But why should I bother you with facts!


Cheers,
L.W.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 03/01/12 00:05, Lüko Willms wrote:
Types like you, if they are German, are nostalgic of imperialist
policies of the _German_ capitalist class, as embodied by Kaiser Wilhelm
(the one of the hun speech) and Hitler.

Golly, how remarkable.

It doesn't matter which chief
robber a friend of robbery does adore, what counts is that he adores the
imperialist robbery.

Well yes. That is why I am equally happy to condemn British imperialism
in India, French imperialism in Indo-china, Soviet imperialism in
central Europe and Spanish/Argentinian imperialism in the South Atlantic.

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 01:06:16 +0100, Lüko Willms
wrote:

Am 03.01.2012 00:19, schrieb Charles Ellson:
dreaming up some insults:

He
thinks that Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968 were justified
reactions to western imperialism. That's why he isn't busy denying
Stalin killed anyone and if he did they they deserved it anyway.

You should be jailed for such lies.

For what criminal offence ?

insult. Claiming false facts to denigrate the standing of other
people, against better knowledge.

Good luck with running that past the Crown Prosecution Service.

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 00:57:47 +0100 [UTC], Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 02.01.2012 23:50, schrieb Recliner:

Only when the government level of
shareholding falls below 30% can it be regarded as anything other than a
nationalised company.

Whatever you may want to make up. [snip]

Why do you resort to accusing people with whom you disagree of "making
things up", Lüko, and why do you _always_ launch personal attacks on
them?

It doesn't exactly add any strength to your arguments, y'know; quite
the opposite.
--
Ross

Speaking for me, myself and I. Nobody else
- unless I make it clear that I am...

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
 

On 03/01/12 00:45, Lüko Willms wrote:
Workers ("proletarians") are the ones who produce all wealth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

Ian

Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
 

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
Oliver Schnell wrote in
:

This rotten company in Berlin should be closed. Tendering the S-Bahn
services could be the first step.

Re-nationalise it. A different commercial operator will squeeze it for
profit just like the current one.

Results of tendering in the last 15 years showed excellent results
concerning what the public received for the money spent for ordering
rail services. I well remeber the schedules and level of service we had
on many railway lines before tendering was applied.


Oliver Schnell